“SOMETHING NEW” ISN’T NECESSARILY SOMETHING GOOD (PART II): WHO ARE THE REAL NEO-MAMMIES?
By Clare X. Brown
In the previous post I drew attention to some of the practical reasons why “Something New” Isn’t Necessarily Something Good. In this post I am going to explore an uglier side of this Black Female/ White Male movement in terms of its attempts to denigrate blacks who promote black unity. Indeed, there are a number of troubling phrases and concepts emanating from this movement. One of those phrases is the term “neo-mammy” – the concept of… wait for it… a “black nationalist” mammy?!!! (See http://bfinterracialmarriage.blogspot.com/2008/02/neo-mammies-suicide-bombers-mammie.html )
…I assume this is a label directed at people like me - whose offence is to attempt to encourage constructive dialogue between black men and black women, and to promote black-on-black love. The incredible irony is that these “Something New” diehards are the ultimate neo-mammies. For example, while most of us are aware that the mammy image serves the interests of mainstream white America (Pilgrim 2000), it is also obvious that The Black Female/ White Male Movement similarly serves the interests of mainstream white America by denigrating black men and glorifying white men, as well as encouraging assimilation/ the eradication of blackness. Additionally, the traditional mammy adored her white family but frequently treated her black family with disdain (Pilgrim 2000) - in the same way, the Black Female/ White Male movement worships white men while treating black men with contempt (e.g. by describing them as being damaged beyond repair). Moreover, as Pilgrim (2000) notes, the slave mammy did not want freedom since she was too busy serving as a surrogate mother to white families; equally, the “Something New” mammies are serving as mothers to white families, acting as biological mammies to their white-looking children (See Debra Dickerson’s disturbing article, “Don’t Be Black on My Account , 2007) which has strong overtones of biological mammy, almost reminiscent of the wretched Delilah character in the film, ”Imitation of Life”( http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1709148_1709143_1709634,00.html ). In short, the definition of mammy is someone who panders to the needs of white people – be they white men or white women. As such, the concept of a “black nationalist” mammy is one of the silliest oxymorons I have come across.
And now we are on the subject of black nationalists, I find it amusing that I am now being directly and indirectly referred to as a “black nationalist type woman” in an effort to dismiss my point of view. The truth is that anyone who has the black community’s best interests at heart would acknowledge the value of Black Nationalist theory (despite its weaknesses in contemporary movements). I have and always will condemn the misogyny and the hypocrisy of some Black Nationalist males who present a veneer of black consciousness (for those in doubt, read this blog in its entirety). At the same time, I believe that an individual who sincerely believes in the survival of the black community would NOT use the term black nationalist in a derogatory way. Be that as it may, if equating me with the less savory aspects of Black Nationalism is a mechanism which allows assimilationist/ denatured black women (or men) to sleep easier at night, so be it. At the end of the day, black people with integrity know who the real neo-mammies are.
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Hey Clare, are those crickets that I hear.
I feel you coming out with both guns loaded and ready. Excellent post!
I read your post several hours ago but had to recover from the humorous post by an angry black woman you have linked to your page. Black Nationalism as a topic by someone who lacks any knowledge of the movement proves nothing short of comical. One of the joys of your blog can be found in the open dialogue you offer on issues relating to “Black Unity” and “Black on Black Love”. This person of little consequence offers a few observations on Black Nationalism that must have been obtained by googling “Marcus Garvey” to justify her need for whiteness. Her constant ramblings of misogyny within the Black Nationalist movement while ignoring misogyny within the white community must baffle even the most dedicated members of the “Something New Crew”.
If the author had any knowledge of the Nationalist movement beyond the lily white interpretations she offers to her readers, she would know that spending time in Africa has nothing to do with black unity or the Black Nationalist movement. Many whites mimic or exceed what she considers an accomplishment in blackness.
Her claim that Black Nationalists have no real action plan and will probably never leave the US only highlights her ignorance on the topic. Black Nationalists have already purchased land outside the US and Europe with a long range plan of relocating to develop a black society void of white supremacist attitudes. Her cry that Black Nationalists should “STFU” is not without reason. It’s a cry that Black Nationalists have heard from the assimilation crew for decades. It’s the “please don’t expose me for what I am” so that I can get others to assimilate with me, therefore making my efforts legitimate.
Clare:
Of course the neo-mammy slur is directed at you and any other Black woman who voices any disagreement with anything that they are saying.
I won’t repeat all of my earlier comments regarding: (1) the constructive vs. destructive manner of handling disagreements; (2) the range of potential reasons for disagreement on an issue; (3) groupthink; or (4) political fundamentalism that I made in response to part I of your “Something New” essays. *Whew—that was a lot of talking back & forth*
I’ll just say this: As far as I’m concerned, the women indiscriminately hurling the “mammy” slur are the same as the “Internet Ike Turners”. Both groups are on a mission to police Black women’s thoughts & silence the voices of Black women who disagree with whatever position they are advocating.
These efforts from all sides to force dissenting Black women into silence are really beginning to piss me off.
As I stated in response to Part One, I do feel that (as much as I dislike name-calling) it is appropriate to identify & slap pejorative labels on people who make themselves public safety issues. I consider Shahrazad Ali to an example of someone who really deserves to be slapped with the “mammy” label. Here was a Black woman advocating domestic violence against other Black women (!!!) in her book “The Blackman’s Guide to Understanding Black Women.” I believe that the “Internet Ike Turners” who get online to disrupt conversations, spew their hatred of women, and/or cyber-stalk women also need to be identified as such.
I’ve noticed that the Something New Crew members who are most into indiscriminately slapping dissenters with the “mammy” label also have another practice: They fixate on the misogyny & sexism within various nationalist movements while ignoring the same misogyny & sexism from other schools of Black political thought. If it was just about sexism, there’s plenty of sexism in ALL schools of Black political thought that should be identified & remedied.
The reason for their negative fixation on Black nationalism is obvious—they’re focused on the many real failings of the nationalists because this is the political trend that is most likely to criticize their interracial relationships. Like I said, there are plenty of contradictions & failings to be found within ALL schools of Black political thought. It’s intellectually dishonest to focus one’s critique only on the school of thought that is most inconvenient for one’s personal lifestyle choices.
Peace.
I’ve blogged about Evia’s ridiculous use of the word “mammy” when she clearly IS the ultimate mammy. What no one really gets about this individual, is that she has DEEP hatred for ALL black people, not only BM. She REALLY despises fat black women. In her lame attempt at fiction, she stereotypes overweight BWs worse than I’ve ever seen in any historically racist depictions by the white media. She does it all the time. And no one seems to ever mention this. Why is it okay to demonize one’s weight, but not their race or sex? Basically, I’m the only person talking about this. It makes me believe that other black people feel overweight people deserve to brutalized.
At this point, I don’t even think she is a real BW.Is she a member of the KKK? Is it possible to hate oneself and other members of your race, so much so, that you will use your time and intellect debasing them? I guess so. While her intentions to “liberate” other BWs from dbrBM could be legitimate, I can’t take her seriously. She is a sad byproduct of her environment.
Got to go…I will be blogging more about this soon…
Clare said:
“At the end of the day, black people with integrity know who the real neo-mammies are.”
And we also know who’s really damaged beyond repair. Go ‘head with your bad self Clare. I admire you.
About that other blog:
I visited that woman’s website once and was horrified at the stream of madness I witnessed. I always knew there are some Black folks who have jumped over the cliff but this was a whole new level.
Then I said to myself “Her white husband must really have some issues to call this woman his wife”. Then assuming her ancestors were proud Black folks who triumphed over slavery etc., I said “I wonder what her ancestors are feeling when they see her acting this way? Are they embarrassed?”
Then I remembered that we had all kinds of folks during slavery, sell-outs, Nat Turners etc., and that we carry their experiences - their joys, sorrows, failings and victories in our DNA. We are them.
I wonder if she ever looked in her family tree to see what her ancestors were all about.
Clare said:
“Additionally, the traditional mammy adored her white family but frequently treated her black family with disdain (Pilgrim 2000…”
Hi Clare, I agree. Although I try not to paint all black women in IR’s with the same brush, I’ve always found this irony coming from the ones who particularly fixate on calling others “mammies”…
I will admit, I too have no qualms in pointing out the transgressions of many black men. However, I will never subscribe to do so in the same light to fortify the white man. Never.
woman unhinged Said:
“What no one really gets about this individual, is that she has DEEP hatred for ALL black people, not only BM.”
I’ve been seeing this for some time now, and very recently I’m almost certain of it.
“In her lame attempt at fiction, she stereotypes overweight BWs worse than I’ve ever seen in any historically racist depictions by the white media.”
“…And no one seems to ever mention this. Why is it okay to demonize one’s weight,”
While I really hate to single out and discuss other blog owners on public blogs, I have to also respond to this. I too found that disturbing and tried to speak out. I was dismissed.
It was presented as a caring health concern for black women. I felt the true motive was to cleverly excuse or negate the real reasons why so many white men still discriminate against black women, which is due to blatant racism, and stereotyping etc. Not to mention it also showed her to be more embarrassed and disgusted at these black women, more than being “concerned” as she stated.
Apart from obvious obesity, many healthy black women are being classified as “overweight” to who’s standard? Notice also while they are so concerned about black women’s health… they don’t equally emphasize about the growing STD cases or the clinical forms of depression and mental illness which also lead many black women to make poor choices in life (including being… overweight and obese). Go figure.
I guess it’s easier to target, blame, chastise and self righteously separate yourself first handedly from other black women who have such an open flaw as being… “overweight” or obese.
You know, I really can’t stand how the white male get so much excuse passes from some of these women (not saying all of them). Do we as black women get any understanding or defending “reciprocation” from the white man as well?
The saga continues with a blog posted by “pioneervallywoman” http://episcopalienne.blogspot.com/2008/02/black-on-black-love-where-do.html
in response to Clare’s “Something New Crew” post. In it pioneervalleywoman takes a comment made on Clare’s blog and rewords it to make the statement seem to denounce woman. The following comment is a quote from her blog.
“One poster said that if black women who date and marry interracially have problems meeting black men and maintaining relationships with them, perhaps it is because they were not of the type of black woman a black man might want.”
Was she referring to this comment?
“It was over the moment you began fabricating. If you go to any of those “something new” sites, it is very, very common for the women to discuss how they got no attention from black men. They then proceed to claim that they got little attention from black men because they are black or dark skinned. They seem to never want to consider that they as individual may not have gotten much attention because they simply as individuals were not appealing to most of the black men they encountered; that it had nothing to do with them being black or dark.”
Or was it this one?
“The negative portrayal of the black male by the so called “on the fence” black female is degrading and in most cases inaccurate. As a result this self hatred manifests itself in a manner that would extremely limit their attractiveness to most black males.”
Or maybe it was this one?
Here’s a thought to ponder, if a black man doesn’t want to marry you, maybe, just maybe it has something to do with something other than the shade of your skin. Since I know many happily married dark skin women raising wonderful families, I tend to lean towards this thought.
I have painstakingly gone over some 200 comments and these are the only comments I could find that are remotely similar to hers.
However, none of these comments refer to a type of black woman. All the comments make reference to the mindsets of these “Something New” women. The negative vibes they give off because of their open hatred towards black men. No matter how much they think they hide it, its there. Pioneervalleywoman would have her readers believe that the “Something New Crew” post challenged the blackness of women who marry outside of their race, when in reality it simply took a critical look at the motivations behind the “Something New Movement” and the holding up of white males above black males.
I often hear the word misogyny bantered around during most of these conversations. While I am one of the first to acknowledge its existence, I am left to wonder if the gratuitous manner in which it is used by these women in particular is nothing more than a form of misandry against blacks. In this case pioneervalleywoman takes a comment, twist it into something that can be defined as misogyny and then writes a blog on it. Though not one of the statements were in anyway misogynistic but simply addressed a fact that black women who have an internal hatred for black men may have a hard time being accepted by them.
Now to the original target of this post.
Evia comments in reference to Black Nationalist:
“So their talk is so cheap. I want to see their contributions and stack what they contribute up against what I’ve contributed. LOL! “
Here is your chance! I am probably the most active (in comments) self professed Black Nationalist on this blog. I’ve also spent most of my professional life identifying and uncovering fraud.
So let’s do it. I offer you the opportunity to expose Black Nationalism before your entire readership. This will be simple, list your contributions to the “Black Community” and I will provide you with a never ending list of the work Black Nationalist are doing worldwide. Com’on don’t be shy, unless you really have something to hide from your readership. This is your chance to prove that their 29.95 really has some value. Wait! I’ll even spot you. For those that claim the Black Nationalist movement to be rife with misogyny, I will only use programs in place to assist “Black Women” worldwide and you can still offer any contribution you make to the “Black Community”.
In the words of Marvin Gaye “Let’s Get It On!”
Change Agent Said:
Hey Clare, are those crickets that I hear.
I feel you coming out with both guns loaded and ready. Excellent post!
Lol…Thanks!
Khadija Said:
…I’ve noticed that the Something New Crew members who are most into indiscriminately slapping dissenters with the “mammy” label also have another practice: They fixate on the misogyny & sexism within various nationalist movements while ignoring the same misogyny & sexism from other schools of Black political thought. If it was just about sexism, there’s plenty of sexism in ALL schools of Black political thought that should be identified & remedied.
They also conveniently ignore sexism (and racism) within the white community.
Peace
black | woman | unhinged Said
I’ve blogged about Evia’s ridiculous use of the word “mammy” when she clearly IS the ultimate mammy. What no one really gets about this individual, is that she has DEEP hatred for ALL black people, not only BM. She REALLY despises fat black women. In her lame attempt at fiction, she stereotypes overweight BWs worse than I’ve ever seen in any historically racist depictions by the white media.
Wow…thanks for sharing.
Sweets Said:
Clare said:
“At the end of the day, black people with integrity know who the real neo-mammies are.”
And we also know who’s really damaged beyond repair. Go ‘head with your bad self Clare. I admire you.
Thank you!
La - msviswan Said:
…I will admit, I too have no qualms in pointing out the transgressions of many black men. However, I will never subscribe to do so in the same light to fortify the white man. Never.
Exactly!
…You know, I really can’t stand how the white male get so much excuse passes from some of these women (not saying all of them). Do we as black women get any understanding or defending “reciprocation” from the white man as well?
Great points…it’s also another illustration of mammy-like behavior - this idea that white men can do no wrong.
I read “Don’t Be Black on My Account” and did find it odd and maybe, if I were being suspicious, dishonest.
Blackness is a part of her children, and they should learn it naturally from her.
If they grow up and it is something distant to them, something they read about in books and do not live and breathe, then it is because their mother has been careful to see that such is the case. (Which she basically admits).
Odd.
foreverloyal Said:
I read “Don’t Be Black on My Account” and did find it odd and maybe, if I were being suspicious, dishonest.
Blackness is a part of her children, and they should learn it naturally from her.
If they grow up and it is something distant to them, something they read about in books and do not live and breathe, then it is because their mother has been careful to see that such is the case. (Which she basically admits).
Odd.
Well she is the author of the book, “The end of Blackness” so while it may be odd to us, I guess it’s consistent with her mission in life!
Change Agent:
If you’re going to do this, it’s preferable that you’re doing this out in the open. If there’s going to be a cyber-feud, I prefer that the points (if there are any real points) of contention are out in the open.
I’ve never observed the beginning of one of these feuds before, so I’ve never had the opportunity to ask any of the aspiring combatants questions before. So, if you don’t mind, I’m curious about the following:
Are you inviting Evia & PioneerValleyWoman to some sort of debate?
If so, what exactly are the points or issues that you want to debate? What I’m getting is that you want to defend Clare from “mammy” accusations, that you feel that you have made valuable contributions to the Black community, and that you disapprove of these women having White husbands.
Other than these things, what is the premise that you want to debate? That you’ve done more for Black folks than Evia? That there’s not as much sexism & misogyny in Black Nationalist circles as people are asserting? [Incidentally, I'm not sure how anyone can quantify something like the precise amount of sexism in a political trend.]
If they chose to participate in this, is the debate actually public? Or is it limited to your “home court” audience here? In other words, are you willing to have your comments & positions cross-posted on these other people’s blogs?
Peace.
Khadija
What is so confusing about my comment? Does it invite Evia & PioneerValleyWoman to some sort of debate? Does it imply a need to defend any individual? Does it criticize interracial relationships? Does it contest misogyny within the Black Nationalists movement?
This is not a feud, it is simply a request that one individual back up their claims with fact. All Evia has to do is document her efforts towards building a stronger black community and in return I will list the efforts by Black Nationalists to support Black women. The responses if posted on the internet are public domain and can be reposted by anyone in cyberspace, therefore there is no such thing as a “home court”.
Let me make one point perfectly clear. My desire to debate with Evia on any issues relating to Black society equal my desire to debate Black beauty with a Black male who advocates degrading black women or entering into a debate with David Duke on the problems facing the Black community. I am void of the need for such a mindless and unproductive exercise in futility.
Peace Out
Change Agent:
I am not computer-savvy. Please excuse my lack of technical skills & understanding of what is or is not possible with these internet discussions.
Regarding “home court”: I don’t know what, other than their own personal integrity, would prevent a blog moderator from editing or altering a commenter’s comments. *Please note that I AM NOT saying that I think Clare would do anything like this. I don’t think she would.*
However, this is the question I had in mind when I referred to “home court.” Again, I’m not a computer whiz, so I don’t know. If the manner, form & extent to which comments are published is solely under the control of a blog’s moderator, then they’re not really fully in the public domain.
As you know, people do all sorts of bad faith things online. With part one of this essay, you identified someone that you felt was posting under multiple names.
This is why when I see online requests to respond similar to yours, I always wonder what safeguards are in place to discourage the willful distortion of someone’s words. And whether someone who responds to such a request is running the same risks that an interview subject takes when they sit down with the media without having their own tape recorder in place.
I guess my questions reflect one of several habits that are an occupational hazard in my field—questions about the possibilities for manipulation of the playing field.
I didn’t feel that your request implied or required a need to defend anybody. Evia & PioneerValleyWoman are grown; and they can speak for themselves if they choose to. I didn’t understand what it was that you were requesting in response to your post. After your most recent statement, I now get what it is that you’re requesting. It’s also good to hear that this isn’t about starting a feud.
Peace.
Khadija,
I see the home court issues as having to do with wanting to speak primarily to a specific target audience, and prove a point to them, however that may be defined. In this instance, proving a point about Evia.
This issue of debate seems to be primarily about Evia’s blog entry on “neo-mammies” and her challenge to black nationalists discussed in her blog entry.
Yet, somehow I am a part of this? I didn’t write Evia’s post on “neo-mammies.” It has been clearly stated that the issue of debating Evia has nothing to do with me.
Yet, somehow I became a part of this, in a venue having nothing to do with me and my blog, and being conflated with the deeds and interests of a woman whom many people dislike intensely, when what she wrote has nothing to do with me.
Oh and Khadija, thanks for your comments regarding this!
Halima Anderson is another interesting figure among the Something New Crew. Practically ALL of her references to trends, statistics, etc. are targeted at “African Americans”, yet she is a British citizen. She has made herself out to be an expert on the African American female experience and on black American men despite not living in the U.S.
For instance, she states in her most recent blog that basically, 3/4 of western black men are worthless. She gives nothing concrete to support this; she just says it.
With her and Esha “Evia” Moore, you hear things from them and their followers that greatly bend the truth. For instance, you will commonly hear their supporters state that 70% of black women have no hope of every getting married. This is a lie. The statistic indicates that at any given moment, 70% of black women 15 years and above are single. 40% of single black women WERE MARRIED at one point.
What they avoid is the statistic that 52% of black women will marry by the age of 30 and this number increases as the age range increases. While still relatively low, it is a far cry from the lie that 70% of black women will never marry.
Another lie commonly stated by them is that 70% of black children are abandoned by their fathers. The statistic is that 70% are born out of wedlock. That is something totally different. They ignore the couples who marry after their children are born. They ignore cohabitating couples. They ignored black men who are active in their children’s lives despite not being with the mothers.
The rest are things that they come up with off of the top of their heads. They say “black men prefer white women” or “black men hate black women”, etc. etc. Any degree of evidence to debunk such claims are ignored or censored out of their blogs. These women are low level demagogues who play with the truth.
Rocky,
You are fighting a losing battle. The one thing I’ve learned through these many discussions is that neither “TRUTH” nor “FACT” has a place in this debate. It took me a while to understand but this is only about personal philosophies and opinions and who can force theirs on others.
Rocky Said:
Halima Anderson is another interesting figure among the Something New Crew. Practically ALL of her references to trends, statistics, etc. are targeted at “African Americans”, yet she is a British citizen. She has made herself out to be an expert on the African American female experience and on black American men despite not living in the U.S.
Very true - the British situation is not comparable to the American one. In the UK there is no “black community” and at least 50% of black men are in relationships with white women. So while the “Date a White Guy” movement may be relevant to Black women living in Britain, it is not applicable to African Americans.
….With her and Esha “Evia” Moore, you hear things from them and their followers that greatly bend the truth. For instance, you will commonly hear their supporters state that 70% of black women have no hope of every getting married. This is a lie.
I agree. I also think it is very irresponsible to spread these lies to black women as it could engender a sense of hopelessness, particularly among women who have no desire to date non-black men. I know that when I was single, Evia’s blog depressed me; I soon realized that if I wanted to meet a positive black man that I had to make my attitude positive… one of the prerequisites of positivity towards black men is refraining from reading a blog that demonizes black men. I urge any black woman who is “on the fence” about black relationships versus interracial relationships to ignore the lies about black men and the lies about their slim chances of getting married.
PS
I do agree that there is a problem with the attitude of some black males, however these blogs generalize this problem and make it seem as if there is something wrong with virtually all black males.
I’m not particularly fond of her use of “mammy” but she isn’t exactly lying about the worthless self-sacrificing of Black women. I’ve seen that in my own family and the end result is broken women.
I talk with women in my family and they (along with the men in my family) are terribly damaged. They were brought up in Nigerian culture which typically likens women to children in the sense that you raise your hand to your wife as you would to your child as a form of discipline and that you speak to your wife as you would to your child.
From what I’ve seen, and what I’ve taken from the anecdotes of other Nigerians, there is no fundamental difference between how a man treats his wife and how he treats his children. Also, many of them believe that “fear” and “respect” are synonymous and there’s far too much chest-beating that goes on. It’s to the point that a number of Nigerian men have to punk (i.e., play ppl for chumps) their wife and kids to reaffirm their beliefs that they’re not pussies. I know Nigerian men that can attest to this behavior as they’ve seen it in their own families.
I’ve seen these same behaviors in Black America. The constant chest-beating, shitting on your kids, the relentlessness to destroy the spirit of your woman — it’s there and it’s never addressed properly. It seems as though whenever it’s brought up, there are mothers and grandmothers ready to coddle their baby boys from constructive criticism that is long overdue.
With regards to this “Something New” phenomenon, I feel that “The Grass is Greener On the Other Side” is a more appropriate label for White-washed Blk women. I watched “Something New” and enjoyed it and found it to be a love story that didn’t shit on Black men and really endorsed straying away from calculated or expected behaviors beaten into your heads by your family. It’s not as though it was the female equivalent of Wesley Snipes turned into a film.
And I don’t see anything wrong with interracial or intercultural (the type of relationshp that I’m involved in) relationships that is done within the boundaries of compatibility and attraction. Exoticization of a racial love (or sex) interest is dehumanizing and, for a lack of a better word, corny.
With that said, I don’t apply sainthood to White men (or White ppl in general) because they too have a history of treating White women like shit. I simply take ppl as they come.
Props to Rocky for dropping those stats that I learned a few wks ago. It’s got a lot of young women feeling depressed about their relationship prospects. What’s sad is how that “70%” figure is applied to “of Black women are single/or have not been married” and “of Black will never be married.” Those stats reek of “It sucks to be you, Black woman.”
I’m really beginning to hate the mainstream media. Did any of you see that series about Blk women on NBC Nightly News a while back? That piece isn’t worthy of being calld trash. Thank goodness for bloggers and Google.
@ Clare
I don’t believe she’s referring to you or women like you in her blog entry. Unless you’re the type to harp on people involved in IR relationships without knowing the foundation of that relationship.
And there are many cases when it is Black men that tell other Blk women that they are hopeless in finding good relationships, that they have no options (been told that), that only Black men will want them (mind you, this is being said at the same time that you’re being told that you’re hopeless), all men are dogs and that you shouldn’t expect to find a faithful (Black) man (been told that numerous times), that you’re too dark (been told that so I guess I should’ve bought bleaching cream), too independent (been told that), too White-acting (been told that), and other nonsense. I’ve also been told that since I have a cute face and a nice ass that I should be fine because that’s all I need. What is a girl/woman supposed to take from all of that?
Let me try and put this dialogue in perspective for those who seem unable or unwilling to understand. The issues that have been discussed on this blog during the past two posts relates directly to a small groups mindset in degrading blacks in order to get their message or doctrine across to women of color. While I cannot speak for the blogs author or any of its participants, I have nothing against black women who marry interracially. I have said and will continue to say, that if I personally chose to marry outside of my race, marrying within the white race would be my last choice, but this does not translate into a lack of respect for those who make that choice. Black (men and women) who marry white are no less Black than Malcolm X or Sojourner Truth, though I do believe that most are forced to make compromises in order to keep the peace. Not just in consideration of the spouse but in consideration of their new extended family, friends, and acquaintances.
Does this mean a Black (man or woman) married to a white person cannot have concern and even commit themselves to acts that support the black community? No, history has shown that many Blacks in interracial relationships have made tremendous contributions to the Black community. This is not the discussion at hand. This discussion explores the mental conditioning that would motivate the something new crew to use self degradation as their method of spreading their gospel.
The frustrations faced in this dialogue have been how to get our observations across while battling with those supporters of the diversity movement who are anti-black. Clare, as always, your voice rings strong and you will continue to be a “HERO” to many. (Self included)
Anonymiss Said:…
…From what I’ve seen, and what I’ve taken from the anecdotes of other Nigerians, there is no fundamental difference between how a man treats his wife and how he treats his children. Also, many of them believe that “fear” and “respect” are synonymous and there’s far too much chest-beating that goes on…I’ve seen these same behaviors in Black America. The constant chest-beating, shitting on your kids, the relentlessness to destroy the spirit of your woman — it’s there and it’s never addressed properly. It seems as though whenever it’s brought up, there are mothers and grandmothers ready to coddle their baby boys from constructive criticism that is long overdue.
I agree that Nigerian culture can be very misogynistic but we cannot generalize these behaviors to all Nigerian couples. Also, African Americans are very different from Nigerians; while some African American men obviously treat African American women badly, I do not believe that this behavior is as common as you imply.
…With that said, I don’t apply sainthood to White men (or White ppl in general) because they too have a history of treating White women like shit. I simply take ppl as they come.
There is something very important missing from your color-blind approach (and the rhetoric of the something new bloggers): white men have a history of treating black women like shit. Just like the Jewish holocaust should never be forgotten, the denigration of black women by white men should never be forgotten by any person of African descent.
Clare you are so on point with your comment regarding the contrast between Jews/Blacks and the Holocaust/Slavery. The Holocaust is held as an event in Jewish history that should never be forgotten. While many Blacks now claim the time has come for us to let go of Slavery. The mental conditioning through colonization is evident in these contrasting views. Blacks debate over whether or not reparations should be afforded them by the US government while Jews pressed the hands of the German, European, and US communities to receive reparations. Jews have focused on controlling those industries that were key players in their genocide; banking, law, and media, while Blacks continue to play the role of consumer. Even the most educated and financially endowed Black person will invest their wealth in white owned corporations that were built on the back of slavery.
It often amazes me when I hear upper crust Black folks criticize lower class Black folks for buying rims and gold, when they are the financiers of the most racist institutions in the world. They bankroll the prison industrial complex, subprime lenders, pharmaceutical industries, breweries, racist medical institutions, and corporations that practice exclusion in hiring and promoting. They put their money in banks that financed the slave trade, profited off Jim Crow, and now thrive off red lining practices in the Black community. Then they actually believe that the problems in the Black community stem from someone purchasing rims. It amazes me how even the most educated Blacks in society still suffer the ills of colonization.
Yes, there are differences between African Americans and Africans but those issues that I brought up are things that I see in both groups.
And I was actually purporting that it’s acceptable in both communities to reduce women to children and anything lesser. And what I mean by “acceptable” is how there isn’t enough criticism on the topic. I can’t think of one spirit-breaking behavior that is condoned on the part of Black women.
And obviously slavery can’t and shouldn’t be forgotten but I can’t ignore the maltreatment of Black women by men who look like them. I’m only speaking on my bicultural experiences but there’s obviously no place for it here as I don’t fit into Evia’s group nor your group.
Anonymiss Said:
… And what I mean by “acceptable” is how there isn’t enough criticism on the topic.
I agree that there isn’t enough criticism on the topic but certainly on this blog there has been a lot of criticism of colorism/ intraracial racism specifically practiced by black men against black women.
See:
http://racialrealist.wordpress.com/2007/11/18/black-on-black-loyalty/
http://racialrealist.wordpress.com/2006/10/14/83/
http://racialrealist.wordpress.com/2006/09/07/should-black-men-be-more-honest-about-their-feelings-towards-black-women/
http://racialrealist.wordpress.com/2006/08/27/colorism-as-racialized-sexism/
http://racialrealist.wordpress.com/2006/07/15/black-women-need-love-too-2/
http://racialrealist.wordpress.com/2006/05/21/i-love-black-menhowever-i-am-sceptical-about-overtly-afrocentric-men-2/
And obviously slavery can’t and shouldn’t be forgotten but I can’t ignore the maltreatment of Black women by men who look like them.
Of course we shouldn’t ignore the maltreatment of black women by men who look like them; as illustrated above, I personally have not ignored this. At the same time it always amazes me how the something new bloggers and others conveniently ignore the maltreatment of black women by white men both in the past and in the present. Eg.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ui1jPNDWArM
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/11/60minutes/main2082140.shtml
http://panachereport.com/channels/hip%20hop%20gallery/CherylWilson.htm
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_25_105/ai_n6153157
If they care so much about the well being of black women, why is there complete and utter silence on this topic?
And why do they ignore black men who work to uplift black women? Eg
http://www.amazon.com/Why-I-Love-Black-Women/dp/0465017630
http://www.math.buffalo.edu/~sww/madhubuti-lee/madhubuti_lee2.html
http://www.amazon.com/Loving-Black-Women-Larry-Johnson-Redd/dp/0967422663
I’m only speaking on my bicultural experiences but there’s obviously no place for it here as I don’t fit into Evia’s group nor your group.
I may be wrong, but your comments so far don’t appear (to me) to be drastically different from Evia’s group. For example, you seem to share Evia’s view that most black men maltreat black women while at the same time mimimizing the racism of white people in general, and also ignoring the potential for white men to maltreat black women.
With regard to the Something New bloggers, I find it ironic that they are so keen to “widen their dating pool” to a group who generally dismisses them as undesirable (white men) while at the same time rejecting a group who have always been naturally compatible to them (black men). As Tony so aptly writes in the previous post:
While there may be many men of other colors who are breaking free of the stereotypes and propaganda to appreciate and pursue the beauty of black women… they’ve got the added barrier of having to get over the natural affinity for their own looks.
I wouldn’t take that as a reason to presume that all non-black men are ill-intentioned (though I do think that those barriers are reason for a healthy skepticism about whether someone is truly willing to cross them on a permanent basis, for all the world to see). I just say that to say that if you can believe that someone who isn’t black can love and appreciate your beauty, common sense should tell you that a greater percentage of black men can. I can also tell you not just that black men can, but do!
Clare this is a example of the music being made by a growing number of spoken word artist turned rappers, that BET, VH1, Radio One, and white owned record companeis don’t care to let the sisters hear.
These brothers have dedicated their talents to opening the eyes of other brothers. They are nothing short of inspirational.
NYOIL - You’re A Queen
http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=6167767
Black Ice - Imagine
http://www.youtube.com/v/iIjp1_2qcCs
No, I’ve experienced good and bad from both groups and anyone in between. That’s why I’ve said that I take people as they come or to be clearer, I judge on an individual basis. I generally tend to feel people out before I develop trust for them.
I don’t know but it certainly wasn’t my intention to sound like I’m resentful towards Black men. For years, I’ve foolishly expected better from people who look like me and share a lot of my socioeconomic experiences. My home life wasn’t great for me as you can see in my earlier posts so I thought school would be a great escape and it wasn’t. Now I’m trying to deal with my issues with not feeling accepted by Black people.
I was raised to be respectful so in turn I’ve treated people as such. I was also raised not to expect much from White people and to this day I don’t. I also don’t expect much from anybody due to a lot of my negative experiences with Black people. Because of my experiences I’ve become desensitized to things over the years. I guess the part where my parents (namely my father) failed horribly was to raise me to not trust everyone that looks like me. There’s no advice on how to deal with intraracism for African kids (or dark-skinned girls. That leaves many lost along the way.
Change Agent
Clare you are so on point with your comment regarding the contrast between Jews/Blacks and the Holocaust/Slavery. The Holocaust is held as an event in Jewish history that should never be forgotten. While many Blacks now claim the time has come for us to let go of Slavery. The mental conditioning through colonization is evident in these contrasting views. Blacks debate over whether or not reparations should be afforded them by the US government while Jews pressed the hands of the German, European, and US communities to receive reparations. Jews have focused on controlling those industries that were key players in their genocide; banking, law, and media, while Blacks continue to play the role of consumer. Even the most educated and financially endowed Black person will invest their wealth in white owned corporations that were built on the back of slavery.
Great points! If blacks spent time helping each other rather than helping white people, think how much stronger we would be. Similarly, if the something new crew spent their energy ameliorating the relationship between black women and black men instead of wooing white men, think how far we could move forward.
As far as Evia is concerned may I refer you to this here
Claire I applaud you.
We need more critical (thinking) voices such as yours, especially regarding the real agenda behind this BW/WM movement.
I’m a proponent of Black Love and Black Unity. I’m appalled by the notion that Black men are so worthless that the only hope for a Black woman is a Great White Hope - a white male. Please…how absurd?
Keep up the good work. I added your site to my blogroll today!
Peace.
Thanks Silk.E
I don’t subscribe to the ‘something new’ movement (seriously wired ladies) but I am a black woman in the UK who has dated white (and black) men . There are some comments here that beg a response……
Feb 27 – ruminations of a racial realist
‘In the UK there is no “black community”. So while the “Date a White Guy” movement may be relevant to Black women living in Britain, it is not applicable to African Americans’
This comment has to come from someone who has never been to England. Have you ever been to London (or Birmingham)? Pretty high proportion of black folks there last time I looked. We are not a homogenous entity – we comprise Caribbean immigrants, African immigrants, their descendants who are British born, but we definitely exist(!) and their communities are there if you bother to look for them.
People seem happy to spread misinformation about the UK. I have seen people on this site quoting percentages for black men who date white women in England quoted as being as high as 90% - purlease….. There are quite a few but the percentage is nowhere near as high. There are also many black/black couples pottering about. Also a few BW/WM couples (with good looks on both sides, before we launch into the interracial dating dregs of society forum). Have to say there are black forums and blogs in the UK, but no major “Date a White Guy” movements. I think that it is more relevant to the US, if I may be so bold.
March 1 ruminations of a racial realist
“Just like the Jewish holocaust should never be forgotten, the denigration of black women by white men should never be forgotten by any person of African descent”
History should not be forgotten, but the logic that seems to follow this argument dictates that Jew will never talk to German gentile, black will never talk to white and vice versa. Is this healthy?
As for my own experience, I was raised with love by two black parents with an elder black brother and encouraged to aim high with regards to education. I went to school in a working class neighbourhood where the same aims did not extend to some of my peers. My schools were those where any black child who obtained good grades was accused by other black children of acting white, and those with mahogany skin and full lips were looked on unfavourably by the black boys in comparison to those with skin of a caramel hue, skinnier lips and thinner nose. People on this site will rail against you if you state that the white guys were more interested than the black guys but this was certainly the case for most of my school days. Black guys did not show an interest until I was on the way to university and I met men on my wavelength. They were definitely welcome, but with the recognition that I was not going to suddenly exclude white guys from my field of vision out of a sense of duty. That principle has stuck with me since uni. I’ve met some jerks (black and white) but I have also had relationships with some fine guys on both sides of the divide.
Summary – people should be allowed to date who they like.
B (Londongirl)
P.S. Reply to La msiwvan
‘Apart from obvious obesity, many healthy black women are being classified as “overweight” to who’s standard? I guess it’s easier to target, blame, chastise and self righteously separate yourself first handedly from other black women who have such an open flaw as being… “overweight” or obese.’
It is not healthy to strive to be a size 0 when genetics dictate that you will be a size 12-14, but it is foolish to ignore the epidemic of disorders such as type II diabetes and sleep apnea that have a direct link with increased weight.
Londongirl
I don’t subscribe to the ‘something new’ movement (seriously wired ladies) but I am a black woman in the UK who has dated white (and black) men . There are some comments here that beg a response……
Feb 27 – ruminations of a racial realist
‘In the UK there is no “black community”. So while the “Date a White Guy” movement may be relevant to Black women living in Britain, it is not applicable to African Americans’
This comment has to come from someone who has never been to England. Have you ever been to London (or Birmingham)? Pretty high proportion of black folks there last time I looked. We are not a homogenous entity – we comprise Caribbean immigrants, African immigrants, their descendants who are British born, but we definitely exist(!) and their communities are there if you bother to look for them.
Of course there is a significant (albeit small) black population in the UK. However there is a big difference between “community” and “population.” As I’ve written in previous posts, the UK is a country with a small, very fragmented black population. As immigrants to a basically white country, it could be argued that assimilation into the white mainstream is actually the natural outcome of migration for black people in the UK. Thus, in the UK there is no real option for black folk other than assimilation as the black population is tiny, social networks are very weak, and there are virtually no black institutions - e.g. nothing like HBCUs (black universities). In the UK, there is no sense of a shared struggle as in the US - indeed, in white settings most blacks studiously avoid each other!
http://racialrealist.wordpress.com/2007/09/02/why-we-must-resist-assimilation/
People seem happy to spread misinformation about the UK. I have seen people on this site quoting percentages for black men who date white women in England quoted as being as high as 90% - purlease….. There are quite a few but the percentage is nowhere near as high. There are also many black/black couples pottering about.
No one here has quoted the figure as being 90%, however it was 50% in 1997 so I would imagine it would have risen signficantly since then. Thus while there are obviously some black/ black couples in the UK, the number of interracial couples is almost certainly higher and rising steadily.
Also a few BW/WM couples (with good looks on both sides, before we launch into the interracial dating dregs of society forum). Have to say there are black forums and blogs in the UK, but no major “Date a White Guy” movements. I think that it is more relevant to the US, if I may be so bold.
You’re obviously not familiar with black sexual politics in America or you wouldn’t make a comment like that…in the USA, the vast majority of black men marry black women so a “Date a White Guy” movement is not appropriate in the USA.
…People on this site will rail against you if you state that the white guys were more interested than the black guys but this was certainly the case for most of my school days.
You’ve misunderstood my comments because my point was that the “Date a white guy movement” was more appropriate in the UK for this very reason - because so many black men in the UK are assimilationist (as you illustrate above).
As I’ve said on previous occasions, this blog is targeted towards a Black American audience – I don’t consider that there is a viable black community in the UK and thus my blog probably has no relevance for blacks who are choosing to reside there.
Ruminations of a racial realist
I hope that you will let me post again on this blog. I am not trying to troll, just interested in a healthy debate and still trying to dispel a few myths!
Why do you think that Black American blogs will not be of interest/relevant to Blacks in Europe or elsewhere, particularly as the link that you have included in your assimilation post refers quite heavily to the UK? I’d say it’s quite healthy to get some feedback from across the Atlantic, and our countries seem to be relatively intertwined politically and culturally. Events in the US have informed events in the UK particularly with regard to race relations. I would like to think that Black people in the US have an interest in black people elsewhere…..
You state there is no viable black community in the UK - is this based on personal experience (in your adult life) or not? If your definition is based on numbers, then I think that you have to take into account the respective sizes of the countries. America pop 300million, Britain 60 million. London has a population of 7 million - 10% are black. Same ratio in the other major cities. In some districts of London, the ratio is even higher. The percentage of black people residing in the US as a whole is 12% - not too dissimilar to the UK.
HCBUs? Take your point - none here, but that’s due to the smaller population as a whole. The linked thread
makes all sorts of assumptions about the lack of
social mobility and the absence of a black middle class. Not true from where I am looking - I’m a postgraduate scientist and I consider myself middle class. I know black doctors, dentists, lawyers and accountants in the UK. I am not going to lie and pretend we are in the majority, but we do exist.
Fragmented community - well, as I stated before, we are not homogenous, but if you are going to tell me that US immigrants from the Caribbean and Africa are identical to African Americans I’d be surprised. If the ‘community’ is truly homogenous, has there been a form of assimilation into a unifying (Black) American culture? As for the comment about weak social networks, if I just use one example, a lot of black people in London attend churches which knit their community together.
Moving back to the current thread. The figure of 90% came from another thread on this blog which discussed relations in (you guessed it) the UK.
In which country is the “Date a White Guy” movement more relevant? Still the US. Quick browse to identify all these “something new” blogs - ALL American. Of course it is relevant to black sexual politics in the States - the sad thing about these blogs is that a lot of women justify their dating preference by talking about DBR men and all sorts of nonsense. Are these blogs appropriate? Different question entirely. I don’t think that the negativity in these blogs is appropriate in the UK or the US. I must reiterate at this point that there is no such movement in the UK, even if there is IR dating.
Overall I think that we actually have some common ground with regard to the original topic, even if we view it from different standpoints
If your definition is based on numbers, then I think that you have to take into account the respective sizes of the countries.
It’s not a point of numbers, it is a point of distinguishability; whether there is a black community culturally distinguishable from the white community to any significant degree as well as demographically separated.
For instance, in any U.S. city, you have ereas of town that are predominantly black, predominantly white, predominantly Hispanic, etc. There are distinguishable speech patterns that typically distinguish blacks from whites as well as distinguishable cultural norms within the broader U.S. culture. We have black churches, black schools, black institutions, etc. The point is that in the U.S. there is a culturally distinguishable black community that seems generally be segregated from the larger white community to a noticeable degree.
The perception here is that this doesn’t exist to a noticeable degree in Britain with regard to non-immigrant blacks and that black and white Brits tend to be more similar than black and white Americans. You can let us know is this perception is off or not.
ruminations is right in saying that in white settings, blacks in the UK avoid each other. i was discussing this on my blog. blackness in the UK erodes but it does exist..to an extent lol
Hey,
I am a white man who is dating a black woman. I simply enjoy being with her. Our relationship is one of trust and equality. I am not “denigrating” her, what ever that means. I encourage to be part of the black community. unfortunately it is only my encouragement that keeps her in the black community.
I personally feel that you put way too much thought into this “movement” and there is no underlying white motive. OR if there is I did not get the memo….
lmao @ “unfortunately it is only my encouragement that keeps her in the black community”
—she is obviously not black in the real sense, is she Randy ?
aulelia Said:
” —she is obviously not black in the real sense, is she Randy ?”
LOL. Aulelia, part of white denial is jumping to ones own paranoid defense, even if the entire “movement” points were missed or eluded.
- signed by this self sacrificing, wrongfully slandered sacrificial lamb for the sake of ALL black females.
Personally, I cannot understand nor identify with the something new movement. I have no problem dating or marrying outside of my race but to base a movement on it is pretentious. I would not even call it a movement (not sure why anyone would). On the other hand, we cannot deny that there are some black men who purposely avoid black women. It just so happens that those men are not in the majority. I’ve had relationships with men of other races simply because I enjoy them just as much as I would a black man. Pretty shocking to hear that coming from a black woman, huh? LOL In all honesty, I feel no need (whether great or small) to be with a black man. It was something to admit to myself that while I still like black men, if I never had a romantic relationship with one again, I’d be fine with that. That does not mean I avoid them, they’re just not a must have for me. But you know, people are going to take the comments we make and swing them any way they wish. With that said, people should not be so quick to call you a mammy simply because they don’t like what you have to say. At the same time, we should not be quick to label others as self-hating because they choose to date or marry out of their racial group.
P.S. I’m new here and intend to read much more as it seems like a great blog.
I find it so amazing that people who really have no need for other Black people have a need to interject themselves into our lives. I wonder why?
Okay. I am a Black woman and I am madly inlove with my White boyfriend. And it’s not that I am not attracted to Black man I just happened to fall in love with this man. And as far as your comment about being called names by White people. I have been called nigger maybe 5 times in my life (I’m 35) by 3 white girls and couple of white boys and ALL of them, including the guys, got the beat down. But you want to know what is even more hurtful and devasting? Being called a bitch and hoe by a Black man. And I can’t count how many times I have been called these names. My father is Black, and so are my brothers, cousins and uncles and I respect and love them, but I am so tired of the Black community expecting Black women to hold it down for Black men, while they disrespect us, and pass us over for White women, Asian, Latinas, or whatever is lighter and brighter again and again.
My White boyfriend treats me like gold. He is intoxicated by the color of my skin. And if a Black man cuts him off in traffice, he might be saying the “n” word when I’m not in the car, I don’t know. But I know when a White person cuts me off in traffic, it’s “white mutherfu*&^er” comming out of my mouth. I don’t love my man any less. We are human.
Does race matter in a relationship? Yes, it does. Do I owe my Black community anything? Of course I do. Do I owe Black men anything? Yes, love and respect. But they are not owed a place in my bed, and when I marry it is before God, not before the Black community.
“Does race matter in a relationship? Yes, it does. Do I owe my Black community anything? Of course I do. Do I owe Black men anything? Yes, love and respect. But they are not owed a place in my bed, and when I marry it is before God, not before the Black community.”
Black men are not owed a place in your bed. I take it that you are a multiculturalist. I’m not saying that anything is wrong with that. I’m not of that particular ilk, but do what works for you.
But earlier in your post you say “I have been called nigger maybe 5 times in my life (I’m 35) by 3 white girls and couple of white boys and ALL of them, including the guys, got the beat down. But you want to know what is even more hurtful and devasting? Being called a bitch and hoe by a Black man. And I can’t count how many times I have been called these names.” My question is, why is it devasting when a black man disrespects you as opposed to a white person?
Presumably, it doesn’t matter to you the race of a potential suitor when it comes to matters of the heart, so why does it matter when it comes to respect or the lack thereof when it comes from a black male or anyone else for that matter. When you date a white man, all that matters to you is your love for him. You’re just two humans who happen to fall in love. But when a black man offends you, now all of a sudden you feel as if he has broken some sacred code of racial loyalty or that he should treat you with a “special” type of respect because you are his “sistah” and should feel some type of solidarity with you, all the while turning a blind I to the white dude on your arm.
One would think that history would motivate a person to “hold it down” for their community. But as is apparent some would like to forget and forgive.
Not Me, Not Ever.
My take on this “something new” trend is that it’s a good thing. Black women are learning that we too have options out there. We don’t have to be 40 and still waiting for some black man to marry and have babies with us.
Now, if a black woman decides that she would rather be single ansd childless for the rest of her life (and I know this won’t happen to all black women)than be with a man of another race then that’s her choice. However, black women must learn that they do not have to be any more loyal to the black race than black men are. Why is it okay for black men to date and marry non-black women, but when black women do it they are abandoning the race.
I personally have a standard of the type of man I date. I only date men who are educated, employed, goal-oriented, open-minded, and upwardly mobile. I don’t want to be with a man who has been in jail. I don’t want to be with a garbage man or a bus driver. I don’t want to be with a man who has children from several different women. I don’t want to be with a man who stands on the corner alll day and approaches me with the line “yo ma, can I holla?”
I know that there are non-black men who have some of these traits that I avoid (I stay away from thosde men as well). I know there are black men who have the characteristics I’m looking for, but it seems as if most of those men don’t want to deal with black women wheather they are educated and employed or not. It’s as if they feel that they should be rewarded for their hard work and that a black woman is not good enough. And if they are going to be with a black woman she’d better not be “too black”.
With this, I’ve learned to broaden my horizons, and I’m glad that I realized this at a young enough age. I used to only picture myself with a black men, but when I reached dating age my experience was that the black men would basically step over me to get to the asian, latino, mixed, and light-skinned girls. It still hapens.
So I do not limit myself when it come to the races of men I’m willing to date. Like I said I want a husband and family before I reach forty.
Oh and the non-black guys who I date are not racists (of course you always have a few bad eggs). They appreciate the beauty of black women and don’t to seem to have the hang-ups about blackness that many black men seem to. The non-black men that I date seem to have overcome the brainwashing (of white superiority and black inferiority).
“I don’t want to be with a garbage man or a bus driver.”
What’s wrong with a garbage man or a bus driver? Someone has to do these jobs. So a brother can be a good man but because he works in a factory, he isn’t “eligible”. A man’s job does not necessarily define his character and his level of intelligence can’t always be weighed by how many years of college he completed. Don’t these brothers deserve a woman too? I guess they have to date the women who are cashiers and waiters, because it’s blasphemous to suggest that a black woman date a man in a lower tax bracket than her.
I hear this too often from college educated black women. Many sistahs don’t respect blue collar brothers. It is a form of elitism and it’s sickening. Because you went to college and got a degree, now you’re better than someone who hasn’t. But don’t dare call these women gold diggers or overly materialistic.
You want nothing more than a trophy husband just like some brothers want trophy wives. The funny thing is, these white men don’t want to marry as much as you may think they do and while you keep passing up the brother who isn’t good enough or “on your level”, the white guys by and large will pass you up as well and you’ll end up lonely and unmarried anyway.
I don’t see why black American women have been burdened in believing that if they are educated they should sacrifice their values and aspirations and be with someone who isn’t on their level. Let me state it clear: No other female on this planet carries that heavy burden. I know of both educated and uneducated females in MANY Cultures who dream and aspire to marry “un buen partido”(A good catch).This is as old as “The story of Adam and Eve”.
This is for the individual who claims he “loves black people”: What does a cultured woman have in common with a man who isn’t? What’s wrong with women aspiring to marry men who are on their level? Those same factory men, if they become educated,cultured and amass wealth , would look elsewhere. Remember,women are not the only members of a community, and shouldn’t be chastised anymore than men for the same reasons.
“the white guy by and large will pass you up as well and you’ll end up lonely and unmarried anyway”.Too many Black men are so obsessed with proving superiority to the “seemingly powerful white man”, that they are incapable of fairness, love and enmpathy towards their own people.
Lonely? Does the thought of a lonely black woman make you happy?
Let me just remind you this : The United States of America, a country rich in diversity, and part of a beautiful and awesome world, is governed by a Majestic, loving Creator.
I do not post to argue and fight with anyone.I will not respond to ignorance, nastiness and angry people.
Cordiales Saludos.
As I said, just because a man doesn’t have a college degree does not make him uneducated. There are libraries you know. Everyone does not aspire to work in corporate America. And what exactly do you mean by a man not being on your level? What is cultured?
Ok. So women have their own standards of what a good man is. So if a man chooses a woman because of her looks, should he be chastised? After all, he’s only going for what he thinks is a “un buen partido”(A good catch).
And to Answer your question, the thought of black women being lonely does not make me happy.
There’s nothing wrong with blue collar work. Somebody has to do those jobs, of course. The question is how much would a college educated black woman with a professional career, who loves to travel the world, eat in expensive restaurants, and play tennis have in common with a garbage man or a bus driver? I’m not going to date someone because they are black just as I wouldn’t date someone because they’re not black. I want to be with a man who shares my beliefs, expriences and interests. Now, if increasing my chances of finding that man means I have to be open to dating men of other races, then so be it.
I am not a gold digger. I carry my own weight. I just want to be with a man who has as much as I do (education, finances,etc.) or more. That’s what I want. That’s what most women of all races want.
I just want to know for the people that are considering dating outside their race, how are they going to raise their multi-racial children? Do you believe that raising a bi-racial child will be difficult? Are you going to raise them as a Black child or a multi-racial child?
This will be my last post on this topic because I don’t want this to turn ugly and I think we can respectfully agree to disagree.
My whole point is that people shouldn’t be so shallow as to judge a man by his bankroll as opposed to the content of his character. Men catch so much flack for to often focusing on the physical beauty of women and elevating it over other traits and I think this criticism holds a bit of validity to it. Similarly, I think women to often put to much emphasis on a mans earning potential. This notion that some black women have that a man isn’t “on you’re level” serves to lend credence to the school of thought that black women are materialistic bimbos, giving their love to the highest bidder.
When I was born, my father was a DJ and made much more money than my mom. Then he quit that job to have more time with his family. Then my mother was making more than him until he landed a better job and began to make more than her. Then she took another position and made more than him. So you see, they were never really financially on the same level but they loved each other so it worked.
And this being on someone’s level works both ways. If I’m not mistaken, the top 20 richest people in the world are men. So according to your logic, none of these men should get married. Ever. How could they possibly find someone on their level unless they marry each other? Should a man making 500k annually marry a woman making 40k-50k per year? What would they have in common? Not money.
And then you assume that you couldn’t possibly have anything in common with a man who is lower on the economic totem pole than yourself. To me, this is argument is extremely weak. What about food, morals, religious values, politics, sense of humor, etc. I could go on for days. What could you have in common with a garbage man? Maybe alot.
Imagine a guy telling his friend how he met a girl and after going out with her, he decided that even though she had all the qualities that he looks for in a woman, he couldn’t date her because she works at Starbucks. If it sounds silly, that’s because it is. Well off men fall in love with and marry women with less than them all the time.
If you’re going look at a man’s status and judge him off of that, then don’t get mad if he looks at your breast (or other physical features) and judges you that way. You’re both shallow. (this is not aimed at anyone in particular)
P.S. I really enjoy your site Clare. Good job. But post some new material already.
bklynbaby, correct me if I am wrong but to my understanding the determining factor to who you will share your life with is what financial bracket they fall under? Everyone else, no matter how good of a person they are or how smart they are are beneath/not worthy of you?
loves black people wanted to know why black women would take greater offense with being disrespected, mistreated, abused, used and thrown under the bus time after time, very publicly and privately, by the very ones that should be most committed to protecting and providing for us?
i re-phrased the question deliberately this way in an effort to help you get that much needed clue. it is unreasonable, selfish, and unrealistic for black men to expect black women to struggle to be mothers, fathers, protectors and providers for the needs of the black community. alone.
it would be better, make more sense, be more agreeable to “love black people” enough to challenge black men to cease and desist with abandoning, abusing and preying on black women and children in the interest of self respect, immediately.
i am pro black. i love black people—men women and children. i think it imperative that the black community becomes balanced. until the black men show up and be counted that won’t happen. it is sheer selfish lunacy that makes black men believe otherwise or not care.
i say this understanding that the powers that be have told black men that white and white like is supreme, beautiful and desirable. in fact, anything other than black like them… as long as they believe and act on this lie in large numbers, regularly, they should forget trying to instruct black black women to be the men and women of the black community. especially, if you consider that it is actually more beneficial for black women to date, mate and procreate out—black men are the bottom males with the least, collectively, to offer due to the ravages of white supremacy and racism. a poor “other” man has more than a poor black man. think about it. our hesitance to date out, loyalty and patience has netted us collectively, nothing. who in their right minds continue to give and sacrifice for nothing?
furthermore, the sexual reputations/myths/lies have been attached to black women as well; God forbid we decide to use it to our advantage as black men do with no shame, regularly. add the facts that we are educated, resilient and have demonstrated for centuries that we will stand in the face of circumstances that causes others to not only bend but break. loves black people don’t believe the lie/trickery that informs your belief that other men don’t desire or will marry black women. “other” men have always loved,married, and provided for black women. you just haven’t seen it in the mainstream just as you haven’t seen our beauty highlighted and celebrated. it is not beneficial to the enemy to teach you the truth. it is foolish for you to build your beliefs on lies. it is plain stupid for black women to continue to ignore the fact that quite a few black men are unapologetically following their own agenda and personal pursuits.
black men need to apply a sense of urgency to losing the selfish “all about me” attitude and get serious about self preservation and the liberation struggle. fyi, self=black men, women and children BLACK WOMEN HAVE DEMONSTRATED THIS UNDERSTANDING, black men not so much! unless, of course black men just don’t want to ensure there will be healthy, protected, provided for black women and babies in the future. admit that to yourselves. those of us that watch/believe behavior have already gotten the message. it is time to pee or get off the pot! at the very least, not talk to black women…get with black men…talk and work it out!
for what it is worth…
blessings,
focusedpurpose
TLW, Loves Black People:
For me, the financial bracket definately comes in to play, but it’s not the only deciding factor. A man’s level of education is also important to me. So is his view of the world, his interests, his values, etc. For example, if man made alot of money but didn’t go to college, I would feel a little funny about going out with him. Why did he think it important to get a degree? If he went graduated from college but is working at the airport, I would absolutely have questions.
Now I wouldn’t totally exclude a man unless he was not working towards going to school or career advancement. I would date a graduate student who didn’t have a job (or worked at Starbucks), because he is working toward a future career.
I have an idea of the type of lifestyle I want for myself and my children.I don’t think it’s shallow to want to have a certain standard of living for my family. However, I would not date an educated man who made lots of money, but is rude, abusive, thoughtless, or a terrible person. I must also truely love the man that I marry.
I don’t believe anyone is beneath me/not worth of me. But,I also know the type of person I would most likely be compatible with as far as a long-term life partner is concerned. I would want to be with a man who would want more for his life than to be a manual laborer. He must at least have that goal for himself and be seriously working at it. I’ve (in my younger days) dated men who were fine work in the food service industry, or did manual labor, and were fine with doing those type of jobs for the rest of their lives. This just doesn’t fit in with what I want for my life now, so I would not be compatible with this type of man.
Also I’m used to men judging me/women based on superficial characteristics. I’m not so naive to believe that men will ever stop doing this.
Basically what I’m saying is that I have a lot of expectations of the man I will finally settle down with. In order to increase my probability of finding a man like this (who also want to be with me) I’ve had to open myself up to dating men of other races as well.
Oh, and if I do have a child with a man who is not black, I’ll raise my multiracial child as “black” and whatever else they are. It’ll be dificult to raise a mixed child, just like it difficult to raise a black child, just like it’s difficult to raise any child who may not completely “fit in” for whatever reason. I’m very dark-skinned.I grew up not “fitting in” with the black children in the schools I went to becuase a large number of them were much lighter-skinned than I was. Does that mean that my parents shouldn’t have brought me into this world? No it doesn’t although they didn’t have an easy time building up myself esteem and sense of identity.
Oh, and I love black people too. I do have black pride. But I also have the ability to love (and be in love with) people of all races.
Thanks for this blog.
I want to say “Loves Black People.” I have a lot of respect for you.
I don’t understand this victim mentality by certain women. Black women have always dated white men. Why are people trying to act as if this started happening 5 years ago.
Evia and her cohorts are no different that Al and Jesse. They are all Victim Merchants.
Also, I have lost count how many blogs there are begging black women to not date these “Black Boogie Men”. It really seems like a joke.
Anyway, I hope everyone is in good health, and I will keep reading your blog.
For all of those people who have a problem with interracial dating,
First off, I don’t think it should matter to anyone else who I date. I am a black woman but I am a human being first. If I and another human being have alot in common with eachother (spiritual, socially, mentally) but we happen to be of a different hue, trust me when I say that that difference in hue is not going to deter me from being with that person.
Secondly,I have a question for you? If a black woman is open to dating and marrying black men who are garbage men, mechanics or any other blue collar job but she is also open to dating and marrying white men who do those same jobs, do you believe she thinks that she think she’s better than other blacks because she is willing to date whites/other non blacks?
Thirdly, I’m really sick of this double standard amongsts black people. If a black man dates non black women its not such a big deal. Its not even that strange anymore to see a black man walking down the street(in a black neighborhood) hand in hand with a white, latina or asian woman. But when its a black woman all hell breaks lose.
I may very well have multiracial children one day. I’m a college educated black woman in my twenties,I’ve dated black and white, but mostly white because they are usually the ones that approach me in a respectful/respectable manner(I will not respond to anything less than respectful). A good number of the well-mannered, upwardly mobile black men that I come into contact with are–like a previous poster had said–will only consider light-skinned,asian or white woman as potential wives. I’m sure that there are some good black men who are blue collar workers or even self made millionaires, but If they are not as well educated as I am then I would be cheating myself out of being with someone that I actually have alot in common with. Like I said, I’m a human being before I am a black woman.I pledge allegiance to the human race. I do not define myself by my coloring even though ther are others that will try.
black men need to apply a sense of urgency to losing the selfish “all about me” attitude and get serious about self preservation and the liberation struggle. fyi, self=black men, women and children BLACK WOMEN HAVE DEMONSTRATED THIS UNDERSTANDING, black men not so much!
I disagree that black women have demonstrated this understanding to any degree above black men. The fact of black women being the majority of single parents in the black community is no different from the fact that white women are the vast majority of single parents in the white community. Both cases result from the fact that a mother’s natural maternal bond is a lot stronger than a father’s paternal bond.
Being that so many black women head single parent households is no indication of black women having some greater understanding of the importance of black unity and family, but rather is an indication of how often black women get caught in circumstances that leave them as single parents. These circumstances commonly result from self-centered, irresponsible behavior on the part of both mother and father. The enormous willingness of many black women to enter into sexual relationships with black men who are exciting to them, yet are of poor character and have little direction is a selfish act especially when these women are so willingly lax with regard to contraception or actually selfishly desire a child despite circumstances not being conducive to bringing one into the world.
Also, we must consider the general breakdown of the black family and how black women’s strong embracing of white feminism (the epitome of “it’s all about me”
has significantly promoted this breakdown. Quite often when black women do select a black man who is good FOR them as opposed to good TO them, they undermine those relationships by treating his kindness and responsibility as a weakness and thus showing him the disrespect one would show a person that they consider as weak. Within these households, the mentality of “it’s all about me” becomes the norm with many black women. This greatly contributes to the high divorce rate among black couples.
Also, one must consider that negative trends in society historically tend to affect black people much more. There is a national trend toward single parenthood and divorce and a growing trend among all males to lack motivation. White females are overtaking white males academically and we are beginning to see more and more young white males with little direction. This is the result of a growing feminist induced anti-masculine trend that has hit black people the hardest as does most trends of white liberals that we embrace.
If intelligent, responsible, educated, hard working black men of good character were the overwhelming target of black women’s intimate affections and respect, we would see important changes in the black community. Yet, a selfish disregard for the community as well as a warped sense of what constitutes masculinity continues to motivivate many sistas to give their attentions to rift-raft.
@Southernbro
Your blaming of “white feminism” for the breakdown of the Black family is telling. Consider how much Black women DON”T embrace “white feminism” your comments reek of sexism and an inability to look at an issue objectively without throwing out the, “it’s all the wimin’s fault” card.
Well said Southerbro
In the absence of rape women control sex.
tsjohnson5 - It’s funny that suthernbro made every attempt to place the blame on both the male and female failings. Somehow, you see these comments as sexist, because they address the dynamics of feminism in black culture. While I may not agree wit every point made southernbro’s comment, I fail to see a sexist approach in his hypothesis.
It amazes me that whenever some black females disagree with a post by a black male they immediately start throwing around words like sexism and misogyny. However, you have the chance to prove me wrong by specifically pointing out the sexist agenda in his post.
Hello,
I just came across this blog and although I respect your honesty, I do think you’re giving white males who prefer black females a bad name. To ask the question of why a white male (and you assume that all of us are comfortable in our own privilege, which isn’t true — many guys like me who are married to black women are just plain sick of racism and want to move forward, not cling to whiteness whether you would grant us that or not) would pursue a relationship with a black female, a person who “he” used to degrade and abuse, is putting us on the hook for the things that our ancestors (supposedly all of them) did, and not giving us the opportunity to show our humanity and be judged the way MLK wanted everyone to be judged. So it’s an unfair generalization. White men who value staying on top of society and choose their mates accordingly probably wouldn’t go for black women in marriage, that’s true. But white men who do marry black women do so out of personal preference for their wives’ individuality and physical beauty, and are willing to sacrifice a little bogus prestige in order to be happy and true to themselves and their partners. Tell me again what is wrong with that? Tell me again why that means I have “very little self esteem?” Being married to a woman from Africa and living in the USA, I can tell you, I feel like I’ve learned a little bit about what it might feel like to be gay, and to be a victim of racism, which is funny since I’m definitely not gay and I wouldn’t have had to be a victim of racial prejudice/others’ discomfort unless I had freely decided that I was willing to deal with/confront it as just part of my life, and now that I’m happily married to my dream girl, it’s a small price to pay in the greater scheme of things. And by the way, I don’t know how old you are, but we’re in our late 20s, and I gotta tell you, I think things are getting a lot easier out there for people in IR relationships. Sorry if that makes you “cringe” but I assure you my happiness has nothing whatsoever to do with reveling in the plight of black men or the loneliness of black women.
I was born and raised in the UK and I agree with londongirl.
I must add just how sad it is that with so many wonderful things that life has to offer, so many hours are spent putting down people who choose partners purely because they love them.
Clearly happiness isn’t a top priority for some people but it is for me. I choose partners not because of their race or looks but because of their personalities, how we connect, what plans we have for the future, can we have fun, etc.
Live life for now.
Who knows, if you are single and looking for a partner, just open your mind and allow good people, regardless of their race, into your life.
We have a choice: Live by and be controlled by negativity or not. Because someone chooses to have a relationship with someone of another ‘race’ does not necessarily mean they reject their ‘race’ - and anyone who believes that for all shows their own ignorance and intransience.
By the way, ‘denatured’ means - ”To change the nature or natural qualities of” - I’m presuming that you use this word, racialrealist, in error and if not in error then it is a glaring example of limited thinking.
As a black woman I am not ‘proud’ of being black. I am not proud of being a woman. I am not proud of being British, or anything else. I am just a human being trying to make my way in this sometimes crazy world. I appreciate humans and all the flora and fauna on this minute planet. I am not proud of anything. It is just as it is. No excuses, no apologies - it is just so. I don’t expect you to understand this point - we are culturally different with different experiences.
I assure you that the chains are still there, unfortunately and if you analyse most of the problems they can be directly linked to the greatest con inflicted upon humans - religions and their texts. People are being controlled and they don’t even see it. So I choose to reject these memes and ideas which do very little for people just like rejecting people who hang onto ideas which should have no relevance in our lives.
Another thing to remember is that in the USA you have a high number of black men who are incarcerated or in some form of institution which makes it difficult for black women to find black male partners. It is difficult for the black community to deal with the fallout of this reality. Of course if you feel able to proactively make tangible changes then do so, but don’t attack people who make decisions which you do not like. Don’t attack those who are looking for and find love. I have said in a previous comment on this blog that this is the only life we know of. No ‘great god in the sky’ waiting to judge me at the end of my life. When I am dead that is it. Finito. So wasting energy attacking people, creating unecessary divisions just seems like spoiling for the wrong fight at the wrong time in the wrong way.
Let me ask you a question:
200 years from now, how do you think history will view these points of view? With new technology connecting people, with humans reaching out via the internet transcending many barriers, with this global world becoming smaller each year - what will be said about your comments on this blog? Will you be seen as someone who is forward-thinking?
Think about it.
Zee Harrison
BlackWomanThinks.blogspot.com
SouthernBro,
I applaud you for your comments. I