“SOMETHING NEW” ISN’T NECESSARILY SOMETHING GOOD
By Clare X. Brown
Since the release of the film Something New, (featuring a black female/ white male interracial relationship) there has been a major effort in the blogosphere to similarly encourage black women to pursue relationships with white men. While the film clearly promotes black female interracial relationships, the blogs take this promotion to a whole new level. Their basic argument is that white men are the answer to all black women’s problems and make it seem as if white men can do no wrong. I find it all rather cringe worthy. But in particular, I always wonder whether any of these women ever consider why - in a white supremacist society - would white men choose black women as partners. Why would people who have historically enslaved another people now want to be in relationships with them? Why would men who defiled and denigrated black women now consider marrying them?
I am sorry but I do not buy the “love is colorblind” nonsense. We live in a color conscious society and the truth is that color does indeed drive interracial relationships - more than the “Something New” brigade are willing to admit. Indeed, some of the worst racists out there are those who are in relationships with black people! Take the case of “Janet” (pseudonym), my Black South African acquaintance, whose white English partner (of thirty years) disliked her bringing black friends to their home. Even more shocking is the autobiographical essay of a mixed race woman who revealed that her white father referred to her mother and siblings as “niggers” when he was angry. So no, no, no - having a black girlfriend or wife does not make someone a non-racist!
Why - I hear you ask - would people who are as racist as this actually seek out a black person? Why would they go through the hassle of taking a black partner? I strongly suspect that in many cases “interracially-inclined” men feel particularly comfortable in relationships with “out-group” women who have a lower status in society. For some, it may be the need to feel special and important in relation to their low status partner; for others, the driving factor is perhaps very low self-esteem in the sense that they simply do not feel secure in relationships with women of their own status (in white supremacist society).
I also wonder whether the black women who are raving about white men ever stop to reflect on the reality of having a white partner. Do they ever consider that their partner will in no way appreciate what it means to be black in this society? Do they realize that he will never truly understand all the crap they have to go through. Additionally, the white boyfriend/ husband is very likely to expose his black partner to increased racism (through racist family and friends).
I appreciate that there is a shortage of upper-middle class black men, and understand that some black women prefer interracial dating over dating a “lower-class” brother. I just hope that those black women who are undecided on this issue will do some serious thinking.
The URI to TrackBack this entry is: http://racialrealist.wordpress.com/2008/01/05/something-new-isn%e2%80%99t-necessarily-something-good/trackback/
Thanx for this article…Hopefully no one is stating White men are perfect in these blogs! However it is time for Black women to consider all races when dating…And just because that man is of another race, does not throw out the rulebook which women need to use to prequalify him!
BWDB http://thecwexperience.wordpress.com
Hello Clare,
I’ve been reading your blogs and the comments for a couple of weeks now and have finally decided to post. First off I want to say that I love this blog and find everything about it empowering and thought provoking. Some of the issues outlined have caused me to do more self relfection than I’ve done in a while. I can directly relate to all of the topics you blog about on some level. And I feel compelled to say that I can also relate to this one in particular. I have found myself at a fork in the road of my life and am pondering on which direction I’m going to take. A little background on me, I’m an African-American woman with 2 beautiful African-American daughters. I am also in a relationship with a white man. I’m fully aware of your views on this issue and I must say I agree, but for me it’s deeper than that. I never thought I would find myself in a serious relationship with a white man, nor do I perfer white men. I met him at a time in my life when I wanted a relationship, and companion. At that time I dated many different types of men and it just so happened that me and him clicked. I didn’t approach him, he approached me. We met at the grocery store, exchanged numbers, talked, dated, and it progressed from there. When I first became involved with him I didn’t necessarily expect to fall in love with him but I was open to that. And it happened. He is a wonderful man, he’s a wonderful father. He has a daughter also from a previous relationship who has an African-American mother. Our daughter’s love each other, I love his daughter and my daughters love him and his daughter. Essentially we became a family. During the happiest periods of this relationship I told the story of how happy I was and that the fact that he is white has nothing to do with why I love him. And it still doesn’t, I love him for the good qualities that he has as a man. But I no longer want to continue this relationship with him. That’s where the crossroad I’ve found myself at comes in to play. There are some control issues and insecurity issues that he has that have really just started to surface over the last 2-3 months. And I can’t take it anymore. I’m a survivor of domesitc abuse so I know the signs of a potential abuser all too well. We’ve fought and argued over this issue and it’s really taken a toll on me emotionally and mentally. He’s aware that he’s on thin ice as far as this relationship goes and he’s vowed to make a concious effort to stop the possessive craziness. He’s very well aware of the reason I can’t tolerate those kinds of things also. Which leads me to one of the good qualities about him. He’s very supportive and understanding when it comes to other issues. I was kidknapped, beaten, held hostage and raped by my ex after I broke up with him due to the abuse I suffered from him. I still deal with some of the emotional issues associated with that situation as it was only a little over a year ago that it happened. I still have very severe nightmares periodically which cause me to not sleep well some nights. My boyfriend has been very understanding and supportive because of this. He stays up with me when I can’t go back to sleep. He even stays up after I’m asleep to make sure I’m sleeping soundly sometimes. And again, he’s a wonderful father to his daughter and my daughters, he’s got many good qualities. But I’m not happy anymore in this relationship for various reasons. The controlling issues/possessiveness is one. But there are other issues. It bothers me that his daughter is very confused and neither he nor her mother is stepping up to the plate to correct her confusion regarding her race. His daughter, 4 yrs old will tell you that she’s white. I pointed out that she has a black mommy and therefore cannot be white. Taking into consideration that she’s only 4 I explained to her that she is black and white only because he and his family don’t want her to identify as being just black. Which, to a certain extent is understandable but at the same time, I pointed out to him that society is going to see her as black. Regardless of the fact that she has a white father, society will see her as a black woman and they should be preparing her for that. It’s very frustrating and disconcerting but I pretty much let it go because this is not my child. I refuse to even think too much about it because it frustrates me so much for them to see her telliing people she’s white and thinking it’s cute. So finally, recently I have her saying that she’s black and white. I feel more comfortable with that because at least now she is acknowledging atleast some portion of blackness. Anyway, I know I’m going off on a tangent. Another issue I’m having with the relationship is the fact that despite the love I have for him I would much rather be with a man who looks like me and understands where I’m coming from on issues regarding race. I’ve been educating myself on some things and like I said, doing some self reflection and quite honestly I’m not even physically attracted to him anymore. I want a black man to love me, protect me, and help me raise my black daughters. But I feel guilty because my children and his child are involved and it will hurt them, and therefore hurt me once this relationship ends. And at the same time I feel that leaving him and finding a strong black man to act as a father figure for them will help prevent some of the color issues that may end up effecting my daughters. Let me know what you think Clare. I’ll appreciate the feedback as long as it’s constructive. Thanks
Hi Clare,
“I am sorry but I do not buy the “love is colorblind” nonsense. We live in a color conscious society and the truth is that color does indeed drive interracial relationships ”
I agree with you 100% on that statement. You see, the golden rule of “tolerance” also house the mentality that a person can HATE an entire race, but “tolerate” that one person or persons under the pretext of being “different” from the others (or, be able to bring the racist very personal and worth wild gratification in some way, etc).
“Indeed, some of the worst racists out there are those who are in relationships with black people!”
I have always known better. The “L” word can usually flip into the “N” word in a heated second, more than people, especially black people in IR’s usually care to admit. Even if it isn’t as blatant as the N word, I suspect similar or subliminal offenses are made on a usual basis. I have heard first hand, the N word being flung from a “liberal minded” white female towards her child’s black father. That’s just one example, but No one can ever convince me otherwise.
“Why would they go through the hassle of taking a black partner? …For some, it may be the need to feel special and important in relation to their low status partner; for others, the driving factor is perhaps very low self-esteem in the sense that they simply do not feel secure in relationships with women of their own status (in white supremacist society). ”
Thank you for this Clare. While some may only think this usually applies to some white females in IR’s with black men, there should be no doubt it could also apply to some white males interested in IR’s with black women also. I should also say I do think there are white/non-black men that find black women desirable or even top-notch to any other, but I don’t think they are in abundance as some of these particular black women seem to project. And by saying that, I am in no way putting down black women or negatively “projecting myself” unto other black women in any way.
I appreciate that there is a shortage of upper-middle class black men, and understand that some black women prefer interracial dating over dating a “lower-class” brother. …I just hope that those black women who are undecided on this issue will do some serious thinking. ”
You see there Clare, that’s the thing. As you also know, there are other valid and understandable circumstances these days that would also prompt black women to consider or seek out non-black partners. You see I have confusing and somewhat conflicting feelings on this matter at this point. There are black males who are just as racially hateful towards black women. And, there are others that have the nerve to misquote and then go after these same black women that encourage other black women to venture for obvious reasons. But, you hardly hear any of these black men put blatantly hateful black men accountable. Instead, you hear excuses like “preference” and “to each his own” and “everyone should be free to love who they want” (yeah, as long as only certain people benefit from both ends). This whole thing angers me sometimes because of the double standards. This is where I get the confliction and get somewhat spiteful in my thinking towards certain black men who wants to do the talk.
Now for me, I prefer to be with and marry a black male, that is MY first preference. (Some of these same black women hate when you say that for some reason). However, if things don’t work out and a racially “sincere and pragmatic” white male comes my way with all the qualities I look for, then I don’t think I’m going to cancel him out. What’s further interesting, some of these same black women get offended when a black female like myself refer to white males as “options” lol (the white man’s feelings still comes first). You can’t win for loosing. I just want to see more black women in healthy, loving, respectful and prosperous relationships with loving men in general. I have always tried to support anyone who wants this also. That’s all I can say. I’m not a “black man’s mammy” and I don’t hate anyone either - sigh.
Great article Clare, thanks for sharing.
I wanted to say something else when I initially quoted your statement…
“I am sorry but I do not buy the “love is colorblind” nonsense. We live in a color conscious society and the truth is that color does indeed drive interracial relationships ”
I meant to say that the laws of first attraction is primarily physical and superficial, while other accepts that build a relationship usually come into place at a later time. Being said, just like there are people who are naturally attracted to a person’s eyes, height, physique etc., why is it so hard for some people to admit skin tone or skin color in this attracting equation. Like you have also stated before on other topic threads, some people just need to be honest about it.
Thanks
Cami B Said:
Hello Clare,
I’ve been reading your blogs and the comments for a couple of weeks now and have finally decided to post. First off I want to say that I love this blog and find everything about it empowering and thought provoking. Some of the issues outlined have caused me to do more self relfection than I’ve done in a while. I can directly relate to all of the topics you blog about on some level. And I feel compelled to say that I can also relate to this one in particular.
Well thank you – I appreciate the kudos.
There are some control issues and insecurity issues that he has that have really just started to surface over the last 2-3 months. And I can’t take it anymore. I’m a survivor of domesitc abuse so I know the signs of a potential abuser all too well. We’ve fought and argued over this issue and it’s really taken a toll on me emotionally and mentally. He’s aware that he’s on thin ice as far as this relationship goes and he’s vowed to make a concious effort to stop the possessive craziness…he’s got many good qualities. But I’m not happy anymore in this relationship for various reasons….
The controlling issues/possessiveness is one. But there are other issues. It bothers me that his daughter is very confused and neither he nor her mother is stepping up to the plate to correct her confusion regarding her race. His daughter, 4 yrs old will tell you that she’s white… It’s very frustrating and disconcerting but I pretty much let it go because this is not my child…Another issue I’m having with the relationship is the fact that despite the love I have for him I would much rather be with a man who looks like me and understands where I’m coming from on issues regarding race. I’ve been educating myself on some things and like I said, doing some self reflection and quite honestly I’m not even physically attracted to him anymore. I want a black man to love me, protect me, and help me raise my black daughters. But I feel guilty because my children and his child are involved and it will hurt them, and therefore hurt me once this relationship ends. And at the same time I feel that leaving him and finding a strong black man to act as a father figure for them will help prevent some of the color issues that may end up effecting my daughters. Let me know what you think Clare. I’ll appreciate the feedback as long as it’s constructive. Thanks
Regarding the race issue, it sounds like you are saying that despite all his good qualities, he doesn’t understand where you are coming from on race issues (which obviously means a lot to you). I’m not an agony aunt
but it would seem to me that you have to weigh up whether the racial misunderstandings and deep need to connect with a black man bother you so much that they negate his good qualities. He also has control issues (which may/ may not relate to my theories on “interracially-inclined men” and low self esteem/ insecurity). The control issue could ruin any relationship regardless of the interracial aspect.
Overall you’ve made it clear that these two issues bother you a lot and you would like to end the relationship but feel guilty because of the children and all his good qualities. It’s a tough situation. Good luck. I don’t know how extreme his control issues are with regard to how he would react but if you are in any doubt about his mental state, you should be very careful about the way you end the relationship in terms of your/ your children’s personal safety.
Peace and Blessings
Clare
Clare:
I think there are at least 2 main factions with the “Something New” crew:
[1]The old-fashioned group of White-folks-worshippers that have found a new & trendy cover for their self-hatred. Many of these women are faithfully spouting the typical oreo lies: “I don’t see color…People are people…blah, blah, etc.” The bolder members of this group openly state their preference for all things/persons White. Members of this group also deny the real issues inherent in pursuing romantic relationships with outsiders.
[2]Black women who have mournfully & reluctantly decided to re-think their positions regarding dating outside the race. I usually detect a sense of grief while reading comments from women in this 2nd category. Grief over the loss of the ideal of the possibilities of Black/Black marriages; grief at acknowledging how nonexistent the Black family has become. Grief at acknowledging the level of murderous hatred so many Black men have for Black women & children.
I know that I’m grieving. Like La-msviswan, I have conflicted feelings at this point about this issue. I remember sitting in the audience for one of Min. Farrakhan’s lectures about 20 years ago (this was during the period when I was seriously considering joining the Nation of Islam).
In short, the Mininster was warning young Black men that their violent behavior would turn the rest of the Black community against them. Warning them that other Blacks were getting fed up with their drive-by shootings. Warning them that other Blacks were getting tired of living in fear of them. “When the tanks come rolling into the Black ghettos, your own people will be cheering.”
This is the point I’ve reached regarding Black women being open to marrying outside the race. We can see that there’s no real loyalty toward Black women. I’m not saying that Black women have refrained from dating out due to a sense of “loyalty” to Black men—I think many of us simply felt that we didn’t have any choices other than to be with Black men.
This has to change. People get complacent & dismissive in relationships when they feel that their partners don’t have any options other than them. This is what I think has happened (among other things) between Black men & Black women. The shortage of viable Black men has created a really ugly dynamic in the Black community. It has made Black men take Black women (and the support that we have given them) for granted. It has undercut notions of sisterhood (the madness of women competing for a limited pool of viable Black men). It has warped the very fiber of the Black community.
I’m disgusted that it has come to this. Just a few years ago, I would have been one of those Black Nationalist sisters shouting down the “Something New” crew. I still can’t stand the rhetoric coming from those in Category #1 I’ve listed above (the constant labelling of other sisters as “mammies” etc.). But harsh reality and my aspirations for my younger sisters have changed my thinking about this issue.
My bottom line—I want Black women to have the same options for enjoying healthy marriages and family life that is enjoyed by EVERY OTHER RACE OF WOMEN ON THIS PLANET! I want more Black women to be able to hold their heads high & introduce their significant others as their HUSBANDS, not as their 45-year-old “friends”. Or, God forbid, as their “baby daddy.”
I want more Black children to grow up in stable, 2-parent families. I want more Black children to grow up in families where everybody has the same last name. I want more Black children to grow up watching a living example of wholesome, married family life.
Since there aren’t enough Black men that are willing & able to provide this, Black women need to move on. I don’t think that this is an easy or care-free process. There are very real issues involved with marrying outside the race. However, it can’t be much worse than the current scenario of masses of Black women pining over/competing to be exploited by a dwindling pool of (at best indifferent, at worst violent) Black men. I have to give the disclaimer—no, I’m not saying that every Black man is at best indifferent. I’m talking about the big picture of the Black community. Let’s tell the truth—many Black men have enjoyed being chased by desperate women. It’s human nature to exploit an advantage.
I believe that this is one of the issues underlying so many Black women & their children that have been attacked & ultimately murdered by the Black men in their lives. Too many of these women actually felt that their only option was to hook up with examples of less-than-worthless men. The “Something New” crew refers to these type of men as being Damaged Beyond Repair [DBR].
I almost can’t believe that it has come to this.
Peace.
You see, the golden rule of “tolerance” also house the mentality that a person can HATE an entire race, but “tolerate” that one person or persons under the pretext of being “different” from the others…
Exactly, the “interracially-inclined” white people are no different from the average white person – they normally can only cope with liking a select few black people who are “not like the rest of them”.
Now for me, I prefer to be with and marry a black male, that is MY first preference. (Some of these same black women hate when you say that for some reason). However, if things don’t work out and a racially “sincere and pragmatic” white male comes my way with all the qualities I look for, then I don’t think I’m going to cancel him out. What’s further interesting, some of these same black women get offended when a black female like myself refer to white males as “options” lol (the white man’s feelings still comes first). You can’t win for loosing. I just want to see more black women in healthy, loving, respectful and prosperous relationships with loving men in general. I have always tried to support anyone who wants this also. That’s all I can say. I’m not a “black man’s mammy” and I don’t hate anyone either - sigh. Great article Clare, thanks for sharing.
You’re welcome – thanks so much for sharing too.
One news story that brought the current situation home to me from November 2007:
Last November, an ARRANGED brawl involving about 30 young Black women (in their 20s) took place in Los Angeles. They were fighting over some Negro (who is currently in prison, if I remember correctly). The brawl turned deadly when one of the young women drove her car into the crowd, killing Shontae Treniece Blanche (who was 8 months pregnant). Two other women were seriously injured, one of whom was expected to lose her leg as a result.
Most of the coverage can be found in the LA Times. I almost couldn’t believe it—a group of young Black women fighting to the death over some felon. These women need to see some other available choices in their lives.
Peace.
Hi Claire,
I understand where you are coming from, but I live in an environment very similar to England where over 90% of the black males marry non-black partners (usually white). Where does that leave black women? Nowhere good let me tell you. I recently came back from the Caribbean (Trinidad) and I was amazed at the amount of black families and young black marriages. There is something seriously wrong here. If my only choices are being alone, sharing a black man with a bunch of other women (so disgusting), or dating outside my race and I think I will pick option #3. It is disheartening that black women in Canada are rejected by black men, but that is the reality.
I know 2 black women who are married to white men. These women are gorgeous. They are married to very average looking white men. The thing is these particular white men worship them. They know they’d never get a white woman as attractive to even spit on them if they were on fire, yet they have two beautiful black women on their arms. One of the women told me she was sick of being alone and her husband was always asking her out, buying her gifts and telling her how beautiful she was. He wore her down. LOL. She said he was definitely not her first choice, but she’s happy now because it is better than being alone. It’s sad, but true. The ridiculous thing is that black men who would never even look at them because they were too busy with their fat, white Beckys are vexed when they see them out. Hilarious. You didn’t want them, but now you are mad because two average looking dudes have two beautiful black women. Times are changing. Black women aren’t just going to sit around and wait, or man share.
Khadija Said: Clare:
I think there are at least 2 main factions with the “Something New” crew:
[1]The old-fashioned group of White-folks-worshippers that have found a new & trendy cover for their self-hatred. Many of these women are faithfully spouting the typical oreo lies: “I don’t see color…People are people…blah, blah, etc.” The bolder members of this group openly state their preference for all things/persons White. Members of this group also deny the real issues inherent in pursuing romantic relationships with outsiders.
[2]Black women who have mournfully & reluctantly decided to re-think their positions regarding dating outside the race. I usually detect a sense of grief while reading comments from women in this 2nd category. Grief over the loss of the ideal of the possibilities of Black/Black marriages; grief at acknowledging how nonexistent the Black family has become. Grief at acknowledging the level of murderous hatred so many Black men have for Black women & children.
Hey Khadija
I absolutely agree with you that the “Something New” crew are made up of two different factions or are coming from two different motivations as you describe above. I just feel the “grieving faction” should think carefully before getting into a “white only”/ “black men are no good” mindset – which I suspect is happening with some people as they get carried away with the “Something New Hysteria”. I feel that there are adequate numbers of good marriageable black men who aren’t necessarily earning as much as a lot of black women would like them to earn. I worry that many good black men are being overlooked simply because of their economic status. Also I think that the media wants to present black men as being damaged beyond repair. I think we should be cautious before falling into the trap of accepting these stereotypes in relation to the majority of black men. As one of the commenters from my other blog points out:
“it just saddens me that many sisters i know who say they’re done with black men and want to date white have little or no real reason outside of the stereotypes, he’ll pay the bills, he’ll respect the ground they walk on, he’ll marry them, ect. this offends me as a black man who does these things…we have a media disparity that loves showcasing the image of no good brothers leaving women soon as the baby comes, but there’s many men who stay and marry these sisters but thats not the image the machine wants put out. it also bothers me that many women with these views fail to realize their own faults, they have issues cause of the men they choose to be with…as a man i see white men still look at sisters as sexual objects, the approach is just different, mostly cause they don’t wanna come off that way and be accused of racism.”
http://blog.myspace.com/racialruminations
Posted by BGGMAANEAK on Sunday, January 06, 2008 at 11:19 AM
Regarding the media stereotypes of black men, also check out the reviews for this video, “What Black Men Think”:
http://www.amazon.com/What-Black-Think-Janks-Morton/dp/B000TY14FC/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1199648596&sr=8-1
I agree with you that there are too many disgustingly denatured black men who hate black women BUT at the same time my opinion is that we shouldn’t let these negroes cloud our judgment about the numbers of good black men out there. I also wish that there was as much effort put into improving the relationships between black men and women as there was into chasing white men.
Clare:
I absolutely agree with the points that you’ve raised. It’s very easy for the “grieving” faction to find themselves in total alignment with the “only White men need apply” group.
I do the best I can to make sure that what I say is more nuanced, and NOT “Go get any man but a Black man.” I’m saying that we need to be open to dealing with any man who will treat us right.
KHADIJA’S MANTRA: BLACK WOMEN ARE ENTITLED TO EXPERIENCE MARRIAGE & FAMILY LIFE LIKE EVERY OTHER RACE OF WOMEN! Right now, this isn’t really available to the bulk of Black women who are trying to find these things with a viable Black man. This means some of us will have to marry outside the race in order to enjoy marriage, legitimate children, and family life. So be it. Almost anything is better than the pathetic spectacle of 30 young women fighting to the death over some bum.
But here’s the problem: As much as I agree that more energy needs to be spent reparing the relationship between Black men & women, how does anybody do that when there’s no evidence that Black men are really interested? I don’t see any serious concern about the state of the Black family coming from Black men. And why would they care? They benefit (in the short term) from the current situation.
Many Black men seem to be more interested in their collective image (”don’t make us look bad–even if what you’re saying is the truth”). And more interested in keeping us as their back-up harem (”I have never & will never do anything to chastise the Negroes who denigrate & mistreat you, but don’t walk away from us—we might need your help the next time ‘Massa’ tries to lynch one of us”). And the “there’s no need to walk away from the brothas” rhetoric (without any action to support it) coming from some brothers rings very hollow given the current situation in the Black community.
Sometimes, the first step in fixing a mess is to walk away from it.
I’ll think about all of this more as other people contribute their comments to this discussion.
Peace.
Hi racialrealist. I would like to say I agree with some of what mizjj said, In the UK black couples are almost non-exsistent, I do not think people realise how rare it is to see a black couple in England and it is not because there are no black people there are loads but there are just no black couples. Many say it is because they find that black women have too much attitude and others say they just do not find black women attractive. This is so upsetting because black women are beautiful and it is not nice to feel rejected. But when I do see a black couple it warms my heart. Do not get me wrong this is not the case all the time in the UK just very often. It is so great to see a strong black family.
A thought for food!
Let me jump into this conversation to offer a few thoughts on this topic. As a black man, I am often dumbfounded by the refusal of some black women to take any level of responsibility for the lack of community we as blacks currently face. Black women who sit and watch as white music producers degrade them via the promotion of a few ignorant artists, and then blame the black male for such acts. They watch as our children are murdered in the streets, pitted one against the other - the result of actions by the white power structure - and turn around to blame the victims of these documented attacks (black males) when they fall prey to the traps set before them. Black women who cry that the civil rights movement was one focused on the liberation of Black men only, while in reality Black women have made the greatest gains from a struggle in which many Black men and women united together and sacrificed everything, including life. In all this lies my greatest frustration - that any black, male or female would consider the destruction of the Black family as a feasible alternative with which to build a family.
Whenever I hear a Black woman utter the words “viable black man” I cringe. My father who worked as a laborer all his life until he was in his early sixties would not be considered a viable black male by today’s black woman’s standards. He was a man, who raised six children to the best of his ability and provided us with more than any degree or a six figure income could have provided. He gave us love! Here is where many of us miss the target. As a black male in search of the perfect mate, I sought out that person who could connect with me on a spiritual level. That person who would have the love and devotion needed to build a strong family unit, regardless of where on the economic ladder we might find ourselves. Whether one is compensated at a greater rate than the other had no bearing on my choice in a mate, it was her understanding of me as a person, coupled with the fact that we move in the same direction morally and spiritually. Notice that economics is not a part of this equation. We as a race have been blinded on so many levels by a society bent on our destruction that we have become players in the game.
Yes, Black men have many struggles to overcome as do Black women. The thought that either would consider the other “damaged beyond repair” is nothing more than ones admission to giving up on the struggle for the sake of self indulgence, be it a black man who seeks out white women or the reverse. I constantly hear the viability arguments from both sides, an argument that is normally based on stereotypes conjured up by the white power structure and then embraced by the black community. A few weeks ago my fiancée and I sat watching the original version of “Imitation of life” when we realized that beneath the visual was strong messages of black women being unattractive, ignorant and promiscuous. The same views used during slavery. These negative stereotypes still remain a major part of how black women are viewed in today’s society (black and white). In contrast the black male continues to be painted as lazy, unintelligent, and untrustworthy. While the methods used to reinforce these stereotypes have changed, Aunt Jemima to Little Kim, or Shoe Shine Boy to Rapper, we continue to perform as agents of these negative stereotypes. Let’s take one of these truths to task.
“There are more black men in jail than in college”.
The original study was not performed using black men in jail but black men under the control of the justice system, to include parole and those in half way houses. The age parameters used included all black men (not a fair comparison to black men in college since the majority of black male college students are between the ages 18 – 24. This study resulted in a higher count of black men in the control of the justice system than those in college, but the data used is obviously skewed.
As far as the declining black male is concerned, college enrollment of black males has increased over the years, not declined. How do we deal with this information? We grab hold of the misinformation and broadcast it in every discussion we have. We implant a destiny of failure into our children when the reality is we are moving forward. In other words, we act as the tools of those who desire to see us fail as a community by refusing to question misinformation when we get it. Nor do we understand how easy it is to communicate the positive (rather than the negative) in order to hold one another up in order to fight against the attack on all of us through negative imagery.
If I were not fortunate enough to find my soul mate within my race, I would consider every race except the white race as a viable alternative.
Clair, it’s Kola.
Thanks for asking me to check out this topic.
I have to say that I agree 100% with KHADIJA and
everything she wrote in her first message.
I also disagree with you….
about Black men being OVER-LOOKED because of their “blue collar earnings” and because
of stereotypes.
If a Black man TRULY wants a Black woman–he will
have one.
The same cannot be said for black women.
In many situations, BW outnumber Black males 6 to 1.
Poor, Lower class Black MEN…use superhuman “charm, romance” to win the most skeptical of white women and they succeed easily…BECAUSE…that’s who they want.
If a Black man TRULY WANTS a black woman–the numbers
and the social status is set up COMPLETELY in his
favor.
What black men don’t want Claire…is to expend the
same energy and emotional resources obtaining a black
woman that they want to spend wooing and obtaining Non-blacks.
They think a black female should feel “LUCKY” to be chosen and should just come along at the bey of a nod.
But like any other human being, Black women want to be…LOVED.
Adored…desired…VALUUUUED…respected.
The majority of black women will accept a garbage
man…provided he can make her feel like the center
of the universe.
“Wearing out the Puzzy”, Claire…
And Professing, “You need a man? I be yo man” is not exactly LOVE.
You talk about “racist” white men and those white men
who use black women for sex….but there are even
MORE ‘colorist’ black men who use black women for
sex, abandon them, degrade them and disrespect them,
and a good number of these black men have college
degrees, big bank accounts and wear Brooks Brothers
suits.
Our community has not dealt with much larger issues
—the fact TRADITIONALLY, that the “blackest of women”
in the community were SCAPEGOATED as the “evil fault”
for us being “ni66ers”, and in doing that—whole
generations of black children, male AND female, were
taught to HATE, IGNORE and REJECT black women as a
rite of passage.
A rite of passage.
I truly believe that in order for White Supremacy
or SEXISM to function….then the majority of EVERYONE
must be…on some level…White Supremacist and Sexist.
EXAMPLE:
The loving mother who says to her son—”You’re going
to be a heartbreaker when you grow up”….”Boys will
be boys”…”that fast ass girl is a HO”…”Carlo is
just too smooth, aint he? He gets all the girls!”
If we pay attention, we will notice that MOST females
in our society hate sexism…but TAKE PART IN IT.
DAILY.
I find that MOST blacks in the U.S. male and female
are “INNOCENT” agents of white supremacy themselves.
90% of Black women won’t be caught with their real
hair in its natural African state (that’s a form of
White Supremacy) and MOST blacks, male and female,
believe that LIGHTER skin and Eurocentric features
are just “prettier” (which is also White Supremacist).
If we can understand that we ourselves choose white
looking images to represent us—-then how can we
argue that Black MEN are not just as prejudice against
Black women as White MEN are????
It’s true.
WHITE MEN…and BLACK MEN…both believe that the
White Woman is just more beautiful and all around
fitting of the “PRIZE” designation than any other
women…because they’re WHITE.
The fattest, toothless white woman BENEFITS
from the image of Marilyn Monroe.
That is because…a “black standard” for beauty and
STATUS does not exist in America.
There IS…a “mulatto” standard that blacks have used
for centuries during and following slavery…but there
is no authentic “black standard” ALLOWED.
And furthermore, that “mulatto” standard MIMICS the
White Supremacist standard.
Claire…
There are WHOLE TOWNS of Chocolate Black Folk in
Mississippi and Alabama where every single black man
is married to a Black woman—but the majority of
those MEN will tell you that if they could get a
white or “redbone” woman….they would.
When they admit that, they’re oblivious to the
HURT they inflict on the psyche of black women.
As Zora Neal Hurston wrote (and black women ignored),
the black community itself sees the Black woman as
a “MULE”….OR….if she’s YELLOW, they see an
“IMITATION” (an imitation of their prized white
dream woman).
So who all is racist and to what degree???
This is a MAJOR argument I’ve been having with
Black Americans since I was a teen, because I feel
that ALL AMERICANS are on some level…white supremacist…without knowing it.
It’s not INTENTIONAL.
It’s just the accepted “norm”.
Women’s hair is supposed to be straight and set
in a European style. Anything else is a DEVIATION
from the “norm”.
Therefore…
…a black female is AUTOMATICALLY abnormal.
PLEASE UNDERSTAND:
It’s true enough that MOST white men willing to date
BW are racist and are taking advantage of black women’s AVAILABILITY, desperation, loneliness and feelings of rejection
…but it’s also true that MANY black men are barely
a cut above the WM in their views of black women.
OUR COMMUNITY PLACES NO VALUE…NONE….ON A BLACK
WOMAN’S “blackness”, her “African hair”(nappy) or
her Black WOMB (’cause we don’t want black children
anyway, remember?)
…so until we VALUE/CHERISH “blackness” itself,
the color and the hair…
…black women really can’t compete with the “norm”.
Naomi Campbell, Iman…they’re just IMITATIONS.
Which is why they ended up with White Men.
Naomi and Iman found that OJ, Tiger and Taye still
overlooked their BLACK EURO-Styled BEAUTY for ugly
breast-implanted blond white women.
Eddie Murphy passed them up for a HIGH YELLOW
IMITATION.
Do you see the system of COLOR that makes US a
replica of the Whites?
In order to feel “SPECIAL”….Naomi and Iman had
to marry men who would be in AWE of them and DROOL
and carry on about how gorgeous they are.
White men.
They wanted the same treatment white women get
for being BEAUTIFUL….and all around this country,
there are literally MILLIONS of drop-dead gorgeous
black women who feel the same ANXIETY.
They never get recognition.
Blackness “automatically” reduces their beauty
to “ALSO-RAN”.
Black men are “indifferent” to our frustration,
because they don’t want us to be ON A PEDESTAL.
They don’t see anything special about being
black.
As Alice Walker has long proposed—it would be
better if black women could become lesbians and just
cut out the EXPLOITATION and DISRESPECT of
—-ALL MEN.
In the U.S. and Britain, I agree with her.
It’s just that bad.
Unfortunately…a lot us (like me), are not able
to BE lesbians. We have to have us some dick
and we love men.
So we find ourselves at the mercy of the “Wind” and
whatever it blows in our direction.
It’s not that we don’t WANT black men.
The overwhelming majority of us DO.
It’s not that a Black man isn’t making enough
money or he fits the stereotypes—MOST of us
would overlook that if he SWEPT US OFF OUR FEET
and didn’t like we should be “grateful”
easy pick’ns.
Claire, I truly, TRULY love Black men and and I
love them from an AFRICAN “bloodberry” standpoint
that no American black woman could even begin to
understand…you’ve never had OVER HERE what we’ve
had in Africa…starting when “rain was new”….
and…I am raising two wonderful, handsome
conscious Black sons
But I have also come to the point, AS A WOMAN, where
I say to myself—”fuck black men”.
AND I MEAN IT.
Like I told the activist Marvin X
…before I “share a man”…I will simply have multiple
boyfriends my damned self and cut out the middle man.
And before I “be alone”…I will utilize men of other
races in whatever capacity (including the racist ones
who “only like me” and not my people)…for whatever
COMFORT I can get out of them, be it emotionally,
sexually, intellectually or spiritually.
Black women
Black women…..are human beings.
They don’t have to be perfect.
They need love, too.
Since the ENTIRE Eurocentric society is set up against
Black women, and since Black men SCOFF at the notion
of starting a REVOLUTION to save the honor and “black”
worth of black women….then I really don’t see what
choice we have in the matter.
The black man is the one with the choices.
Change Agent:
Obviously, reasonable minds can disagree. And we do have several major points of disagreement. I’m delighted that you responded, it gives me another opportunity to have a detailed exchange about all of this. Please excuse the length of my response—I want to discuss this in detail.
[1]It’s interesting that you somehow equate “viability” with criteria based on income/money. I never mentioned money, class, economics, etc. in connection with viability. I think we’re talking past each other.
Even though I didn’t mention money, let’s talk about money for a moment: I’ve said this on another thread, but it bears repeating here. It is reasonable for any woman to be concerned about a potential spouse’s economic prospects. As I’ve mentioned before, my father also started off as a poor man. But he never courted my mother with the argument of “Settle for downward mobility & get with me.” He & other “old school” Black men courted their future wives with assurances that life would be good & would only get better with them. They also gave their future wives good reasons to trust their assurances by being hard-working (working 2 jobs, going to college at night, etc.).
I think it’s become a comfort zone for guys to reduce women’s objections down to money. It’s also a caricature of rational concerns about one’s (and one’s future children’s) economic security. In a Black community that has WAY too many adult males rotating from sleeping on “Big Mama’s” couch to their various “baby mama’s” couches, concerns about economic security can’t be laughed off.
Another thing about money: Let’s not overlook the very real insecurity that a lot of men (including Black men) have when it comes to dating/marrying women who make more than they do. Class/economics isn’t solely a female concern; guys have issues about it too.
When I was in college & law school I dated several blue-collar (for lack of a better & quicker way of describing them) guys. [All Black, for those who are wondering.] Some of them had real insecurities about the fact that I was going to have a professional degree and they weren’t on that track. This is despite the fact that plumbers, electricians and others often make as much money as some lawyers.
[2]When I talk about “viable,” I mean someone who is actually interested in a committed, monogomous marriage. Not someone who cheats on his girlfriend/wife. Not somebody who’s juggling a number of women. Not someone who’s so irresponsible that he’s got a trail of illegitimate children in his wake. Not someone who wants to “shack up” instead of marrying. Not someone who has to be dragged into court to support his children.
And “viable” means that he wants to have this committed marriage to a real woman who is his peer/equal in terms of looks & age. It doesn’t count as “viable” if the only Black woman a Black guy will deal with is one who looks White, or looks like a model (& he DOESN’T look like a model) or is 20 years younger than him.
I’m light-skinned with [at various times in my life] long hair—I’m quite familiar with light-skin privilege & I’ve observed since high school how darker sisters often have to have more going for them to get favorable attention from Black men. When I say viable, I don’t just mean viable for light-skinned women. I want fulfillment for ALL of my sisters.
Regarding the college enrollment rate of Black men: I don’t really know how many of them are in college. I do know that being a college student doesn’t automatically make a Black man “viable.” There were quite a few Black male college students engaged in the above negative behaviors when I was in school.
(Er…Kappa Alpha Psi, Omega Psi Phi, anyone…LOL…Let me NOT get started on the Black “Greeks”. Full disclsoure—I was insane enough to pledge a Black sorority when I was in college. It was about the only social activity I did that pleased my parents—who were afraid that I was going to grow up to be a “bomb-throwing radical.” *Big belly laugh here*)
At any rate, you already know what a “viable” Black man is—you described him above. Men like your dad & my dad. Old-school Black men. I find it interesting to note that even when old-school Black men failed in certain aspects (cheated on their wives), they kept that failure undercover. For the most part, their (concealed) failures didn’t prevent them from supporting their wives & legitimate children.
Compare this to the current madness in the Black community. A roughly 70% bastard child rate (yes, I’m deliberately using the ugly, old-fashioned, legal term for it). A whole new vocabulary—”baby daddy” & “baby mama.” Previously unheard of patterns of death-camp type atrocities in the Black community (I won’t list them here, I’ve mentioned them as they’ve occurred during discussions on other threads).
These occurrences aren’t stereotypes or negative imagery. I am through with buying into Black men dismissing our very real problems with a wave of their hands. What I see happening all around me is real.
[The changes I've observed while working in the court system are real. Not that anyone has to have had my observations of thousands of client's personal circumstances over the years to see that there's a real problem.] *Note to my sisters–what you see in your life is real—stop buying into the “Jedi mind trick” that what you see all around you doesn’t count as real*
[3]Black women’s refusal to take responsibility for the mess in the Black community. I can’t tell if you mean me, or others. Either way, I’ve been very clear in my comments on various topics that Black women are complicit in their own mistreatment by continuing to support people who don’t support them. This is why I consistently call for Black women (and Blacks in general) to only support people who are worthy of support. And to stop supporting people who don’t support us.
I also noted on an earlier thread that Black women are the ones who raise the vast majority of self-hating, dysfunctional Black men.
[By the way, White women were the ones who benefitted most from the civil rights struggle.]
[4]About Black children being pitted against each other in violent attacks, and “blaming the victims who fall prey to the traps set before them.” We discussed before on another thread. I believe in free will; and that at the end of the day people make choices in their lives (except for those persons who are truly insane).
I’ll just have to agree to disagree with you here. I don’t have any sympathy left for those who perpetrate death-camp atrocities on our people. In an era when Black criminals forced a mother to commit a sex act on her own son, time out on “let’s weep for the criminals.” First, let’s protect ourselves from them.
[5]About giving up the struggle for the sake of self-indulgence: It’s good that you’ve got a fiancee & it’s good that YOUR needs are being met. Congratulations & may God bless your future marriage.
What about the bulk of your sisters? What about THEIR needs? It’s human nature to get complacent when we’re comfortable. As one philosopher stated, “We all have the strength to bear other people’s misfortunes.” I try to keep this in mind; but it’s hard.
Sometimes it’s hard for me to remember that just because I’m comfortable doesn’t mean that everything is a-okay with other Black women.
Struggle is one thing; but a martyrdom operation is totally something else. Back to my mantra—Black women are entitled to have the same opportunities for marriage & family life as every other race of women.
***Khadija climbs onto her ill-repaired soap box to scream at the top of her lungs***
NO ONE is entitled to tell Black women to settle for less. Or to settle for never experiencing marriage & family life because they have restricted themselves to only dating Black men.
***Ladies, marriage & a legitimate family is part of your God-given birthright—just like it is for every other race of women! Don’t let men try to guilt-trip you into sacrificing your birthright. Especially those who are enjoying the benefits of a stable, committed relationship while you suffer in isolation.***
***Her throat raw, Khadija climbs down from the soap box***
Peace.
“Regarding the race issue, it sounds like you are saying that despite all his good qualities, he doesn’t understand where you are coming from on race issues (which obviously means a lot to you). I’m not an agony aunt but it would seem to me that you have to weigh up whether the racial misunderstandings and deep need to connect with a black man bother you so much that they negate his good qualities. He also has control issues (which may/ may not relate to my theories on “interracially-inclined men” and low self esteem/ insecurity). The control issue could ruin any relationship regardless of the interracial aspect.”
Re:
Thanks Clare for your input and I will definetly take all of those things into consideration when making my decision. Right now I can say that I’m optimistic because right now things are going “so far so good” but that can easily change within the next few days if he reverts back to the controlling ways. I would say as of now, I will stick it out to give the relationship a chance. But I’ve made him aware that I will end the relationship if he cannot get it together. And the possessiveness and things related to that are the real reasons as to why I’m not happy in the relationship right now. True enough there are somethings that frustrate me as far as him not being able to relate to me on issues regarding race. But those are things I can deal with and just take with a grain of salt. I have made the decision though that if I do find myself single again, when I’m ready to date, I hope to find a man who looks like my father (tall dark and handsome) and is as strong a man as he is.
i agree with you clare that interracial relations are informed by racism … there is no such thing as color blind. i also personally find, as a black woman, that white men are unattractive and pretty lame. i mean they can’t dance with you … etc.
but my thinking on the matter has evolved to this: if that’s what you want … be my guest! i think there is a rising number of black women (and men) who actually IDENTIFY culturally with these white people … well then, those are the black people i probly wouldn’t hang out with anyway (not that they are BAD people) … some black people have an affinity for white people … so i say let em have each other.
i refuse to have anything less than an afrikan king. but that’s just me.
Well, well, well–definitely appreciate reading a well thought out piece complete with a rational argument, conclusion–bravo!!!
Since this is my first time visiting, I’d like to ask a question, do you believe those white men who date black women only do so with those who embody the ideologies of whiteness? I’ve NEVER seen a white man who dated a, for lack of a better term, HOOD CHICK. Typically, the women they date are either fully assimilated, waging a one woman war against black men or bored with chasing the African American dream. These women are either children of affluence, well educated or attempting to so-called expand their social circles or broadening their ethnic horizons.
I have absolutely no problem with African American women dating white men, however, if they do so because they perceive them as BETTER then I believe a moment of introspection is in order–self-hate may be at work. Again, brilliant!!!
“Whenever I hear a Black woman utter the words “viable black man” I cringe. My father who worked as a laborer all his life until he was in his early sixties would not be considered a viable black male by today’s black woman’s standards.”
Hey Change Agent, I understand many of the things you are saying, but here are my humble thoughts. I agree with Kadija’s standpoint on these issues, she said them well. I also want to point out with respect to your father and my own grandfather, that statement borders the mindset of black women making sacrifices and special considerations for the black man. This is just one way of looking at it too. This is what the black community does, yet there is no “special brakes” or consideration for the average black woman who gets looked over by the average black man due to imposed societal superficialities. These two factors come hand in hand, make no mistake about it.
As for the black women “shaking” in the videos. Don’t make them, she won’t feel compelled to shake them. Even so, white women shake theirs all the time in their type videos, society don’t look down on them. And you don’t hear white men calling them B’s and ho’s and disrespect them the way black men do, do you?
“Yes, Black men have many struggles to overcome as do Black women. The thought that either would consider the other “damaged beyond repair” is nothing more than ones admission to giving up on the struggle for the sake of self indulgence.”
They make no exceptions, trust me. They are “subtly” shifting more attacks on other black women as well.
“The original study was not performed using black men in jail but black men under the control of the justice system, to include parole and those in half way houses. “
Even so, are these men still “viable” in accordance to today’s standards of even providing basic survival needs and protection for the average black female and household? I’m not judging or blaming anyone, but these are one of the key reasons why we are also not thriving as a race in most modern societies. Even so, I respect your perceptives as usual.
Peace,
La
As usual, Clare, you have come with a thought-provoking post and your commenters have responded in kind. I have lots to say. I do believe you may have inspired me to write a series in response.
In the short-term let me just say that I agree that “something new” isn’t ALWAYS “something good”, and pretty much agree with Khadija 100%.
Ok, its time for me to knock the chip off my shoulder and walk the path of two of my favorite and more articulate contributors to this blog, Khadija and La. For the sake of this conversation I will put my positive mindset on black relationships in my mother’s battered trunk and take a more cynical approach to choosing a mate. Since I am currently involved in a happy and secure relationship with a wonderful woman of color, I will have to summon the suppressed affluent black male within to make this work.
As a black man I must confess that in trying to find a mate that is compatible to me, I must go outside of my race for several legitimate reasons. My greatest challenge has been finding a woman of strong moral character. This has been close to impossible within my race as most black women I meet come with the additional baggage of several children and multiple baby daddy’s. The lack of respect they show for themselves and their bodies is nothing less than appalling. Combine this with their inability to successfully parent a child and the combination guarantees failure. Today’s Black women have shown beyond a doubt that they are not built to nurture another human being. Look at the number of children being raised by their grand parents, while their mothers are out at the club seeking out a new daddy to add to the list. The sanctioned physical abuse black women inflict on their children, along with constant occurrences of black women renting their children for the sexual gratification of old men and you have a being incapable of caring for anything other than themselves. I must also mention that black women are the fastest growing population in prisons. I can go on and on with the critical flaws found in black women, but I believe that this is more than enough.
As much as I hate to admit it, black men seeking a strong secure family life should reconsider any thoughts of taking that step with a black woman by their side. We would be much better off by seeking out better opportunities with white women. To my brothers, skip the baby momma drama and find a woman of higher caliber.
Now, back to reality! We all know that while these arguments can be seen as factual by some, they in no way depict the black female population as a whole. This isn’t even the majority of black women, however these women do exist, and in great enough numbers to make my argument plausible to anyone who wants to accept it as an excuse to bailout. One of the most profound statements I have ever come across in my readings was made by Harriet Tubman. When told she had helped to free some one thousand slaves during her work with the Underground Railroad, the interviewer asked how it made her feel. Her response went something like this, “I could have saved one thousand more, if I could have convinced them that they were slaves”. How true this statement was then and now.
Kola,
Damn, damn, damn… I am at a loss for words. Sike!!! First let me give respect to the author of this blog by pointing out the correct spelling of her name “Clare” not “Clair” this would be a totally different person.
My first observation; if you are a black woman located in a city or town where black women outnumber black men six to one, you are sitting in the middle of denaturedville, run as fast as you can.
While I can respect your opinion as being your opinion, the fact that your experiences have led you to believe that most black men would prefer white women over a woman branded in the image of his mother, strikes a cord of confusion. I assure you as a black man that any black women with a positive attitude towards black men will have no problem finding one willing to place her on a pedestal.
Freudian slip
“It’s true enough that MOST white men willing to date
BW are racist and are taking advantage of black women’s AVAILABILITY, desperation, loneliness and feelings of rejection
…but it’s also true that MANY black men are barely
a cut above the WM in their views of black women.
Note the use of the words Most and Many.
Just an observation from a black man who could only wrap his arms around a woman of strength “A BLACK WOMAN” and yes, I have had many opportunities to choose a weaker being.
Kola Boof said:”If a Black man TRULY wants a Black woman—he will have one. The same cannot be said for Black women…If a Black man TRULY WANTS a Black woman–the numbers and the social status is set up COMPLETELY in his favor.”
100% agreement from me—this is the crux of the problem. I suspect that a lot of Black men don’t “get this” because it works to their advantage. It’s fun & ego-gratifying to have desperate women chasing you.
Kola Boof said: “90% of Black women won’t be caught with their real hair in its natural African state…” Too true! The social disincentives are often too high for girls/women whose sense of self-worth is already very fragile.
I’ve had short, natural hair at various points in my life—typically it was Black guys who expressed vocal & loud disappointment that I had cut my hair. Silliest natural hair comment from a Black guy (I was in high school): “You let somebody CUT YOUR HAIR!!!You need to find the person who did that & get your money back!!!”
Let’s be real—I had the self-confidence as a teenager to have natural hair because I knew (in the back of my mind) that I would still get favorable Black male attention due to being what Kola Boof would call “a high yellow imitation.” In short, I knew I could get away with doing nonconformist (and “Afrocentric”
things because I was light-skinned. Darker girls who were brave enough to wear natural hair were typically ignored by guys when I was in high school.
I noticed early on that Black activist-type guys talked a good game of Black consciousness, but at the end of the day they chased after the same light-skinned, long-haired girls just like the rest of the guys.
La-msviswan said:”…that statement borders the mindset of Black women making sacrifices and special considerations for the Black man…This is what the Black community does, yet there is no “special breaks” or consideration for the average Black woman who gets looked over by the average Black man due to imposed societal superficialities. These 2 factors come hand in hand, make no mistake about it.”
100% agreement from me—this is another central part of the problem with overall Black male/female relationships—There is NO reciprocity. We’re expected to cut slack to non-functional brothers, but NO slack is being cut for us in terms of superficialities.
I’ve always been amused by the fact that the loud-mouth, street-Negro (& average looking) characters on tv shows–the Martin Lawrence-type characters–are always hooked up to model-looking, higher-functioning wives. Even street-Negro-persona comedians envision themselves marrying “up,” instead of hooking up with women that are their peers. I also noticed the preponderance of White-women’s children among Black actors—the Jasmine Guys, the Halle Berrys, Boris Kodjoes, Mario Van Peebles,etc. Black men don’t have to be half-White and also look like models to find work as actors (it helps, but it’s not a prerequisite); but often Black women do have to have these attributes. No reciprocity.
This touches on the point made by Stumpfacade: No, White men who select Black women aren’t going to settle for Sheniqua-The-Hood-Rat. They want the “trophy women” that everybody else wants—higher-functioning women who are “children of affluence.” [Unlike Black men, who are happy to select toothless, poor & fat White women.] But the addendum to this is that “Sheniqua’s” peer “DeShawn” doesn’t want to marry Sheniqua either. He just wants to have sex with her and sleep on her couch while spending his days not working.
And this leads me to my final point. Yes, this point is just for you, Change Agent: *Smile*
I never said that “Sheniqua” was marriage material or “viable.” Didn’t I earlier describe the savage & pathetic spectacle of 30 Sheniquas fighting to the death over some DeShawn?!!!What in the world was the now-deceased (and 8 months pregnant) Shontae Blanche doing participating in this brawl? God rest her soul; but I still have to question her (& everybody else’s) involvement in this madness.
[I know my use of these invented, welfare-recipient-affiliated names will offend some readers. Too bad---I'm not biting my tongue in these comments.]The typical Sheniqua-type antics you described in your comment from 12:49 a.m. are all too real & prevalent. This is what the absence of marriage (and the stability that it brings) has created in the Black community.
Unlike a lot of Black men (who are more focused on preserving a false image of their collective behavior), I’m not invested in denying Sheniqua’s antics.
Sheniqua needs to be cleaned up. This is why Elijah Muhammad instituted the Muslim Girls’ Training & Civilization classes. Consciousness-raising is part of cleaning up Sheniqua. She needs to understand that marriage & a legitimate family are part of her birthright and prepare herself for such things.
If there aren’t enough DeShawns who are willing to marry her after she makes herself viable, then she needs to move on to outside men who are her peers—she needs to move on to Carlos & whoever else will treat her right. She needs to understand that she has choices that don’t involve gladiator-type combat for the fickle affections of DeShawn.
The other problem is that “Yasmine” & “Helena” have the same dismal prospects for marriage to a Black man as Sheniqua. The Yasmines & Helenas are already viable; and yet far too many of them are alone. What you are not comprehending is that they will PERMANENTLY lose their opportunity to experience marriage & childbirth if they listen to you.
MANY YASMINES & HELENAS HAVE ALREADY PERMANENTLY LOST THEIR CHANCE TO EXPERIENCE MARRIAGE & FAMILY LIFE BY ADHERING TO THE VIEWS YOU ARE PREACHING. And I notice that you really don’t have any answers or comfort to offer these women. Their suffering is not on your radar. The Yasmines & Helenas that haven’t already “aged out” of their childbearing years can’t afford to wait any longer for mythical viable Black men—there aren’t enough. Yasmine & Helena also need to move on.
And it’s a travesty of Black unity to demand that they (alone) sacrifice their opportunities to enjoy marriage & family life just to support your idealized view of Black men. Especially when your own needs are being met—you aren’t making the sacrifices that you are demanding from Yasmine & Helena. Like I said earlier, there’s no reciprocity in any of this.
This is the social equivalent of human sacrifice. I don’t believe in sacrificing (other) people to prop up some obsolete dogma. Life in the Black community is not what it was during the Black power era. That moment has passed. It’s time to acknowlege that reality & plan around it.
Back to my mantra—I value my sisters & I want them to have the same opportunities for marriage & family life that is enjoyed by every other race of women.
Peace.
I have to agree mostly with “change” in this. Let me add, I am sick of hearing black women with a few degrees talk about how black men are ‘intimidated’ by them. I know for a fact many of those same women would be more intimidated by black men like me. Even the denatured self-hating category-1 black women are willing to make exceptions for me. For black women believing they can hang off common|ugly|fat|or older white men [all so wonderful] and jump ship, guess again. It is beneath me to eat what fell from a white mans table. Both in physical appearance and social status, I am who many would hold as ideal. Who are the ideal black women? Are they single? No. I have been, for years. Since I am not willing to tear apart a functioning black couple even if I could, you’re not the only ones who may have to settle. It’s hard when the same lack of self-confidence you speak of among men seems just as pervasive among black women.
Let me also add, children born to unmarried women is the norm now in the US for women of all races, making up the majority of new births nationwide. Also marriage rates are decreasing for everyone. Stop being so unnecessarily condescending and negative laying the blame of your own inferiority complex and brainwashed disposition at the feet of ‘black-males’. While it is not uncommon for women to vent frustration on issues with men, it seems to be a racially destructive and denigrating exercise that is not the case for others.
Change Agent said—
I assure you as a black man that any black women with a positive attitude towards black men will have no problem finding one willing to place her on a pedestal.
____________
(So tell me, Change Agent…when did you experience being a BLACK woman?
’cause you’re fulla shit.
TOTALLY fulla shit.)
Your feelings of embarrassment and guilt, Change Agent,
as you hear Black women speak the TRUTH about their pain, loss, dehumanization and disenfranchisement from Black Men makes you shout out…WHAT OUGHT TO BE.
But you know damn well what time it is, unless you’re picturing every black woman as a Mulatto/Biracial chick which is probably what you mean when you make such
claims about Black men and their “LOVE/DESIRE” for
black women who see them positively.
PULLEESE!!!
As much as DESPERATE black women worship, cater to and
rearrange their natural faces to please DISINTERESTED black men.
**yawn**
Then again, you could be over 40 and unaware of the WHOLE PICTURE going on right now. An “old school”
black man who doesn’t know the landscape anymore.
What black men DON’T want….
…is to lose their ENDLESS POOL of “color-coded also ran SISTAS” that they keep on hand for exploitational uses.
GOD FORBID she should wake up from his admonition that she’s ugly and nobody BUT HIM would wants her or that she should DARE wander outside the black community or live her life for herself and not for the black community and “the BLACK MAN’s struggle”.
GOD FORBID she should imagine her world without him
in it.
Black American men HATE black women.
But they don’t want to lose their MAID, their MAMMY,
their BED WENCH, their SURE THING.
And don’t get me wrong….
I’m not saying that BW should stop trying to love
Black men…
I’M SAYING that BW need to START OVER and give birth
to a new son.
BW need to realize that a great majority of black
men don’t want to be loved–they want STATUS and they
can’t get that with their own reflection.
BW need to reinvent themselves.
BW need to wake up and idealize their own unique look
and stop indulging black men’s “white girl obsession” by MOCKING Euro-looks and projecting the message to black children that “white looks” are better.
MOST Black Men get the bulk of their self-hatred as infants tugging their black mother’s blond STRAIGHT hair weave or other fake “indicators” of what she thinks of herself and blackness.
Black women are just as sick as black men are.
Black women are the ones who gave birth to and
raised all these sick sorry self-hating black men,
and black women have been doing that…for a LONG
TIME now.
When black women wake up and dare to TRULY love
themselves—they will then be loved by the
black children they produce.
But part of a black woman loving herself (in 200
is going to have to encompass SOMETHING NEW, because
the reality is—NO ONE hates black women in this
society more than black men do.
And a girl’s gotta do what a girl’s do.
My loyalty is to my womb.
The RACE shitted on me and I’m the QUEEN,
the motherseed, so what does that tell you?
And to Clare, sorry I misspelled your name. I’m sure
you weren’t upset about it knowing you.
Hey Change Agent, thanks for the compliment and wisdom, Likewise. It’s hard for me to express myself at times, but I really try regardless of possible ridicule.
“I must also mention that black women are the fastest growing population in prisons.”
Many of those black women are in jail due to using/transporting drugs (you will most likely find a black male behind this). Embezzlement crimes, which are “usually” caused by having to fend for herself or household. She may have even been “pressured” in some way by a black male in her life to do this (this happens a lot). Some are there because they defended themselves against a black male’s abuse or they commit violence towards other black women, usually fighting over a black man. No excuses, but I just want to show how lack of “viable” black men are still connected to this.
“Now, back to reality! We all know that while these arguments can be seen as factual by some, they in no way depict the black female population as a whole. This isn’t even the majority of black women, however these women do exist,”
Yes they do, and their growing both ways unfortunately. Let us also not forget these type black women most likely grew up in a fatherless household as well. What do you think they are searching for? They are also most likely the ones who will get in contact with the same shiftless institutionalized black male… and so the cycle continues. But you see, I don’t ever forget the root of this. This cycle didn’t start with the black female dropping the ball. I have to say it. If anything, the “black mammy – give em a break” mentality did help enable it. I will say that much.
”…and in great enough numbers to make my argument plausible to anyone who wants to accept it as an excuse to bailout.”
Yes, but their number count still doesn’t top the ones of even the incarcerated/institutionalized enabled black male population, and not even in ratio. Still no comparison in my opinion. That’s just one of the many poor excuses some black men use to degrade black women/mothers in general. Interesting though, notice it’s not quite the top ten excuse. I think that’s because majority of these same black men who are inclined, well know they personally in some way are the cause why so many black women have out of wedlock conditions. But, even some still audaciously try to flip the script. Also, not all single black mothers are not dysfunctional, some are doing very well and still raise outstanding children by themselves.
However, it still goes back to my previous theory above. While I might add, it openly appears there’s even a growing amount of non-black women who are also falling “victim” to these same “DBR” black males. This speaks volumes, especially if one tries to present them as a minute group of black men.
I know there are good black men out there, I suspect these same black women know as well. Unfortunately, these black men don’t seem in abundance to accommodate the still highly virtuous black female population, who wants a black male partner as first preference. Something has to be done about this, either way. Anyway, thanks for the mind food
Peace and Blessings,
Ladies:
Please listen very closely to what I feel is the “money quote” from N’Dulge:
“…you’re not the only ones who may have to settle.”
Hmmm.This statement is even more significant than him pretending that a nearly 70% bastard child rate is a-okay (because other races are doing it).Whatever…We know the effect that a majority bastard child rate has had on our community.
*Note to God-fearing readers: The reason I’m sticking to the ugly, old-fashioned, legal term “bastard” in this conversation is because one of Satan’s tricks is to encourage us to give pleasing names to negative behaviors.*
I’ll overlook the probable dishonesty of his other statements—if he’s “got it going on” to the extent that he can charm denatured Black women in category #1, how likely is it that he’s single EXCEPT BY HIS OWN CHOICE?
Sisters, now examine his statements in light of your own observations of real life. Tune out the “Jedi Mind Trick” that many Black men would like to run on you to discount observed reality. How many Black men have you EVER seen “settle” when it comes to women? Men “settled” during the era of “shotgun marriages” when pregnancy compelled some guys to marry (with a little armed intervention from the woman’s male relatives). That era passed decades ago. There are currently no social disincentives for being a “baby daddy.”
His real message to you = Black women have to settle.
Sisters, you don’t have to settle. And if he wished you well, he wouldn’t want you to settle. More sisters need to practice discernment. There’s a HUGE difference between brothers who mean well, but don’t “get it” (ex. Change Agent) and the wolves who want to make sure that you’re available to be exploited.
Back to the mantra—Sisters, it is your God-given birthright to have the same opportunities for marriage and a legitimate family as every other race of women.
Peace.
“Since the ENTIRE Eurocentric society is set up against Black women, and since Black men SCOFF at the notion of starting a REVOLUTION to save the honor and “black” worth of black women….then I really don’t see what choice we have in the matter.
The black man is the one with the choices.”
I’m just now seeing Kola Boof’s commentary. I enjoyed reading it. I love black unity and black love, but I have always guided myself around those very last sentiments she said. I don’t always agree with everything the “something new” crew have said, and I know couple of them resent me personally. Still I will always defend them before I could ever do so for the black male on this issue. Even if they as black women don’t want to admit it. They need to learn to distinguish their true enemies ( enemies by any race or gender), before they wish ill on the wrong black women/people who are actually trying to understand or help them for the sake of all black females. The End.
Do I dare?
http://foreverloyal.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/something-new-isnt-always-something-good-thoughts-in-response-to-clares-articlepart-i/
I guess I do.
At the risk of being small-minded in the midst of a big-picture philosophical discussion . . .
It seems to me that some of the issues that cause some women to take the “Something New” approach are issues that can’t be solved instantaneously on the individual level.
Nobody within the next week is going to make sure that all black men are sufficiently “viable” prospects to satisfy all the black women who are looking. And nobody within the next week is going to convince folks with the most leverage in the dating game to act as if they don’t have it.
[I think there are things to be done on the big-picture level, but that's another conversation . . . ]
For those reasons, I don’t have a gripe with anybody choosing to expand their universe of acceptable partners to increase their chances of finding somebody who will treat them well.
What’s being discussed here is the expansion of that universe across racial lines, and I’ve noticed people here and elsewhere saying that they wouldn’t prefer to make that choice, but would consider it if necessary. That’s understandable. What I’d suggest is that if you’re willing to cross that line, it might be worthwhile to consider crossing another.
To talk in movie title terms, if you’re gonna consider “Something New,” you should also think about “How Stella Got Her Groove Back.”
Date younger guys.
I’ve seen a lot of the discussion from women say that they’re not necessarily looking for current net worth when they’re judging family-making potential. If that’s the case, then maybe a guy whose potential is far greater than his current achievement through no fault other than his being ten years younger than you is worth a look.
Of course, being the senior member of the partnership might require stepping outside of some comfortable and well-established roles. But so will expanding your options in any other direction.
Kola Boof: I admire your “straight–no chaser” style!And I 100% co-sign your post from 1/8/08 at 8:31 a.m.
I was also appalled by Change Agent’s statement assuring us that “any Black women with a positive attitude towards Black men will have no problem finding one willing to place her on a pedestal.” I agree with you that he’s stating what he desperately wants to believe about other Black men. This is dogma, not reality. And obsolete dogma at that—the 1960s are long gone.
I’m excited about your idea that “Black women need to START OVER and give birth to a new son.”
When I reflect on your post, I realize that we need to START OVER in so many ways. One of the things that troubled me from the beginning was how Clare and Change Agent immediately framed this issue in terms of money—that the problem was a “shortage of upper-middle class Black men” and a purported unwillingness to date blue-collar men.
Framing the issue in this way is part of our traditional discourse about the dating game & the decline of the Black family. We need to START OVER with our understanding of this issue. Maybe during an earlier era, the problems with Black male/female relationships revolved around money; but that is not at all the core problem now. We need to start over with a new paradigm that accomodates current reality.
The current core problem, to paraphrase Kola Boof, is that no one hates Black women more than some Black men do. We need to acknowlege that reality and plan around it while we work to nurture new & healthier Black children.
La-msviswan: Co-signing (as a former criminal defense attorney) your statement about why “Sheniqua” is in prison. I’d say that a large group of prison-bound Sheniquas do what they do (transporting drugs, etc.) at the urging of the “DeShawns” in their lives. And the vast majority of “Sheniquas” & “DeShawns” I’ve encountered in the court system were born out of wedlock & came from fatherless homes.
*I have to digress & vent at this point—Can everybody tell that these made-up, welfare-recipient names are one of my pet peeves? Aside from my horror at the negligent manner in which too many Blacks choose these names for their children, it annoys me that the court dockets are FILLED with these types of names. I’ve seen White judges laugh as the court clerk calls out these invented names. It’s an endless source of humor to the racists in the courts. Sometimes they bet on how many times the names “Courvoisier,” “Lexus,” “DeShawn-LaShawn-TaShawn” will show up the day’s court call.*
La-msviswan: As you noted, all of this is connected to the lack of viable Black men. Not that it’s impossible to raise viable children as a single mother (as you noted). It’s just so much harder & the odds are against a good outcome with the single-mother scenario.
Tony: I like the way you think! I’ll have to ponder your suggestion that Black women consider crossing other lines (date younger men) to expand the universe of acceptable partners. And I’m curious to hear your ideas about what can be done on a “big picture” level.
Tony said: “And nobody within the next week is going to convince folks with the most leverage in the dating game to act as if they don’t have it.” What a refreshing blast of honesty!!! I’m losing patience with those who are trying to run the Jedi Mind Trick.
Peace.
Khadija Said:
…One of the things that troubled me from the beginning was how Clare and Change Agent immediately framed this issue in terms of money—that the problem was a “shortage of upper-middle class Black men” and a purported unwillingness to date blue-collar men.
Framing the issue in this way is part of our traditional discourse about the dating game & the decline of the Black family. We need to START OVER with our understanding of this issue. Maybe during an earlier era, the problems with Black male/female relationships revolved around money; but that is not at all the core problem now.
Well it seemed to me that economics WAS one of the core issues driving the discourse - certainly in Evia’s blog… I think one of her phrases is something like black women deserve a man who can “bring something to the table”. Be that as it may, I think we all need much more clarity on this issue. I would like for us to define “viable black man”/ “marriageable black man”/ “good black man” etc. What are the key attributes that a viable black man should reasonably be expected to have? Do you feel that the majority of black men fall short of these attributes? If so, where is the evidence for this? How do the “advantages” of dating white men outweigh the “disadvantages”. If it’s worth working through the downsides of being in an interracial relationship for a white man, why is it not worth working through any downsides if it’s a black man (who already has being black in common with you). I’m not saying I have the definitive answer to this issue yet. If it turns out that the majority of black men are not marriage material then of course I’m not saying black women shouldn’t broaden their dating/ marriage pool. But is this actually the case? I personally need to hear more evidence (not just anecdotal) from both sides.
I forgot to add the other core issue in terms of some black women’s reasons for dating/ marrying white men - the issue of “denatured” or self-hating black men. The argument is that a large segment of the black male population are so self hating that they either reject African American women outright by marrying non-black women or they only marry black women who are light skinned. In other words they automatically reject all black women who are not light skinned (ie most African American women). Thus they are saying that the “thugs” combined with the “self-hating professional” black men make it extremely difficult for a black woman who isn’t light skinned to marry a decent black man. Again, could someone provide some evidence for this argument. Are the majority of African American men thugs and/ or seriously denatured? I sure hope this isn’t the case but if people are going to claim that this is indeed the situation, it would be useful to have a bit more than just anecdotal evidence.
As this conversation slides into the old familiar realm of name calling and insults the level of respect from one gender to another is more than clear. While I do have things that are in need of greater attention in my life, I will take the time to leave one more tidbit to be pounced on and torn to shreds by the pure, grade (A) hatred embedded in the most recent posts.
First a message from my father; “Profanity is a poor substitute for intelligence”.
Let me get this right – I love my black man, the good for nothing trifling loser.
After all why should the perfect black woman have to settle for a lower status black man. Walter (as in Disney) obviously built a secret amusement park in which all of you are currently residing. A place where you can be strong, weak, a victim, or a leader depending on your need to defend yourself. We are the leaders of the race, but you make me shake my ass on videos. We raise the children, but you made us have multiple children with multiple men against our will.
Here’s a thought to ponder, if a black man doesn’t want to marry you, maybe, just maybe it has something to do with something other than the shade of your skin. Since I know many happily married dark skin women raising wonderful families, I tend to lean towards this thought.
Oops, here comes gravity.
As a black man raised in a extremely positive black household and one who has over his 48 (old school) years surrounded himself with strong positive black people of all ages I find the constant insults against my race, males or females (yeah that was me that would come to the defense of one of you if a poster started to unfairly attack you) nothing short of white. The fact that none of you understand the reason for this is what really leaves me in a baffled state. If one of you could present some factual data to support your arguments I might even be inclined to entertain your thoughts, but I need to exit this discussion before it drains every ounce of positivity from my body.. By the way, as far as sacrifices go it took me 48 years to find the right black woman.
Khadijah - The negative references made in my earlier post that you have taken liberty to assign to “Hood Rats” was taken from my personal experiences with women, none of who were Ghetto in any shape form or fashion. So much for the “Hood Rats”.
Oh how easy it is to for a black man to find a “VIABLE BLACK WOMAN”. Guess I just had a string of bad luck though because to hear this blog tell it every black woman who wants to get married is a perfect candidate. WRONG! You can’t hate me and love me at the same time, get some balls and take a stand, do one or the other and stop hiding behind I love my black man BUT!
Walking away with his head down, tear in his eye he mumbles to himself…
“I have never said there should be no alternative choices for black women, my point has always been they shouldn’t be white men. Thank God I have my Mammies.” LOL
“But in particular, I always wonder whether any of these women ever consider why - in a white supremacist society - would white men choose black women as partners. Why would people who have historically enslaved another people now want to be in relationships with them? Why would men who defiled and denigrated black women now consider marrying them?”
Why don’t YOU tell us since you’re obviously the product of an interracial relationship between a WHITE WOMAN and a black man? Why did your white mother marry your black father? Why would she the white woman who the white men invented slavery for, lower herself to be with a black man? [And yes, slavery was created to keep white women in the shade because they age so hideously from the sun and keep them from the agricultural work that women on EVERY other continent do.] Why would your black father consider marrying a woman who he could have been lynched for smiling at a few decades ago? How can your father now look black women in the eye, knowing that BW rallied, marched, and were hosed for his right to whistle at white women when not only did black men do nothing to protect BW from racist white men except shuffle their feet and say “Yes Mastah” while they raped his black sisters and daughters but now, here in 2008 when black women need black men the most he is abandoning black women again?
But don’t spend too much time questioning your parents dysfunctional marriage or even your own biracial confusion. Instead worry about how here in the US (check the US census), that there are only 70 single black men –of any socio-economic class or prison status– to every 100 single black women!!!! Worry about how no matter how smart, sweet, or submissive black women become and even if we are willing to enter into relationships with “low-class,” ex-con, down low, drug-addicted, hygiene challenged, etc… that 30% of BW will never have a black man of our own to love and be loved by.
You may think that your blog is profound and racially conscious but by discouraging black women from doing what black men (like your father) have been doing for decades, YOU ARE DESTROYING THE BLACK COMMUNITY BY FORCING THE 30% OF BLACK WOMEN WITHOUT A BLACK MALE PARTNER into a life of loneliness and baby mamydom. But black women across the globe are wising up to this hypocrisy and searching for loving monogamous relationships with men based on their character and not their skin color. I hope that you too can find the strength to wake up before its too late.
Great responses..wow. Love the dialogue..will have to get back to this later.I do see both sides of the story and wil come back with my own take on this later. I did want to say though to Kola your comments such as “BLACK AMERICAN MEN HATE BLACK WOMEN..” are unfair and rather offensive. I do not have time to go through all of them now but the comments do seem to reveal your own prejudices against African American men. You maybe reacting to your own experiences but let’s not generalize and dog a whole group of people please.
This maybe a great topic for one day Clare, African American and African relations in the US.
Here is some real evidence, an article from 2005 about children born out of wedlock drastically increasing while teen pregnancy, the primary cause for the phenomena, is decreasing. 2006, 2007 reports show even greater increases with this becoming the majority as I said earlier.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-11-21-births_x.htm
I am as conservative of a Christian as it gets so please do not judge me. Among poor people of any race, out of wedlock birth rates are higher. The state gives drastically lower levels of assistance to married women with children than to those that are unmarried. You can figure out how this applies to African Americans. The numbers of 70% do not equate to abandonment. Many of those 70% have very active fathers. We all know some, don’t lie!! Calling them all bastards is either pure ignorance or a deliberate distortion of reality designed solely to denigrate your own people.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-07-18-cohabit-divorce_x.htm
More real evidence, the rapidly growing decline of marriage in America. It is even more pronounced in the coastal areas and places with higher living costs. Thus the assertion that all other women are having wonderful marriages, while black women, because of the worthless garbage degenerate black male, as some would have you believe is not accurate. Over-hyping the white males while at the same time… I’m reading someone talking about how black hip-hop artists denigrate black women while white male artists praise women! Have you seen the white porn stars, groupies and misogyny promoted by white male musicians in rock & country? Further, every mainstream hip-hop album in the last three years has at least one love song that praises a black female significant other, usually released to radio. You cannot say haven’t heard any of them. Why are we products and pawns of white supremacy in a gender divide? Its disgusting, pathetic, and very sad.
I cannot say definitively that that a nice decent black woman that takes care of herself has difficulty finding a black man. I just don’t know of any. If any of you that take issue with that and you happen to know were the hang-out spot is, I’d really like that info. Just for real evidence sake.
MonA - Just when I thought it was safe to get out of the water, here comes another one. The brainwashed few who do nothing more than regurgitate the rhetoric of others without given any quality thought to their point. Rate of men to women 7 to 10. You are correct according to the census. Now my question back to you or any of the participants of this post who want to answer. What would the national marriage rate have to be before black women run out of black men? Also, what is the highest rate of marriage ever recorded for any race in the history of the US?
I will gladly supply the answer (which makes your statement nothing more than nonsense) once you tell me that you have no clue and made the statement with no understanding of its importance. In other words, it sounded good in making my point.
Clare:
You’ve raised some interesting questions in your last 2 posts. This conversation is really refining my thinking about all of this. My initial thoughts:
Since I feel that the women in Category #1 of the Something New Crew have totally self-hating & otherwise illegitimate motives, I really don’t know if they’ve been talking about money. I tend to tune them out. As I s