POOR INTERRACIAL INTERACTIONS - WHO’S TO BLAME?
By Clare X. Brown
While there are black people who generally get on very well with white people and vice versa, I believe that black and white interracial interactions are inherently problematical because of the baggage that comes with living in a racist society. There is often suspicion/ discomfort from both sides…In a recent post that I did on white oriented black people, Damali argued:
you get back what you give out. Meaning that if you are a friendly person, that’s generally how you will be treated in return… if ANY person, not just blacks, is putting out negative energy or behaviours into the universe, more than likely, that’s what they will get back… Its about personal accountability. And i don’t believe that any black person is above that…
I strongly disagree with this viewpoint because:
- This perspective fails to acknowledge the reality of what it is like for a black person to live in a racist society and the awkwardness that whites often inject into interracial interactions which can make it difficult for black people to be “natural” and “super-friendly” with whites all the time…I feel very strongly that you simply cannot make “colorblind” judgments about interactions which are affected by race.
- Furthermore, I feel that the logical conclusion of this argument is that blacks who do not manage to “assimilate” as well will have to “take the blame for it”…”they didn’t interact in the right way”…”they were not friendly enough”… “they weren’t outgoing enough”…”they didn’t smile enough”…”they have a chip on their shoulder”…”they are paranoid” etc etc…I see this as a “blame the victim” philosophy…and I think it’s also very much about “proving oneself” to whites/ “winning them over” by showing one has a “great personality” etc … like most of western ideology, it encourages the pathologizing of black people and enables whites to delude themselves that they have the moral highground.
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your “logical conclusions” are illogical. and it has become evident, by this entry, that you will twist my words to validate your agenda. I’m a bit offended by the way you’ve used this entry as an attempt to ridicule me just because you don’t agree with my viewpoints. Since this is the way you operate, our discussion has ended and i will no longer attempt to engage you. Take care.
Damali said…
your “logical conclusions” are illogical.
Well that’s your opinion.
I’m a bit offended by the way you’ve used this entry as an attempt to ridicule me just because you don’t agree with my viewpoints.
Again, that’s your opinion - if you want to think I tried to ridicule you then that’s your choice.
Since this is the way you operate, our discussion has ended and i will no longer attempt to engage you.
That’s fine.
This post reminds me of my wife’s friend. She is a white woman. She seemed like a really nice woman when I finally met her, but she assumed that I was South African before we met because my wife is from South Africa. She was later surprised to find out that I am African American and became a little concerned about meeting me. She asked my wife, “did you tell him that I am white?” My wife found that strange and I explained to her my theory when It comes to the relationship of whites and American born blacks here in America. Basically, I think that some feel that we resent them for past transgressions and they automatically think that we don’t like them when we meet. They don’t seem to have this same problem with Africans or people of the Caribbean because there is no direct connection. This does cause a problem in society because a group tends to be passive or mean to another group if they don’t feel appreciated or welcomed. They usually approach with caution or indifference that usually comes across as condescending and silly.
Wow Realist, I totally agree with your response to Damali. Instead of attacking you, it would have been nice for him (or her) to defend or expound on the comment they wrote.
stephen, I agree with this comment too….
Basically, I think that some feel that we resent them for past transgressions and they automatically think that we don’t like them when we meet.
So true. I have passed white people on the streets, malls, airplane, airport, etc. here in America. And although I spoke first, many acted surprised that I had spoken to them. They immediately smiled and seemed to appreciate that I did not have an “angry” or “standoffish” position. Many readily spoke although that was not always the case.
Point is, I believe you are right, some believe that we resent white and that is simply not case.
For me, you treat me with respect and I’ll do the same.
Stephen Bess said…
Basically, I think that some feel that we resent them for past transgressions and they automatically think that we don’t like them when we meet. They don’t seem to have this same problem with Africans or people of the Caribbean because there is no direct connection.
Interesting point.
Terrence said… Wow Realist, I totally agree with your response to Damali. Instead of attacking you, it would have been nice for him (or her) to defend or expound on the comment they wrote.
I agree - thanks…I also find it suprising that Damali seemed so shocked by my arguments…I would have thought that it would be pretty obvious to anyone who reads this blog where I stand on these issues…anyway, this blog is meant to be provocative so it’s inevitable that from time to time it will provoke strong reactions.
Its all a consequences of inculcation, thoes defined and that accept being defined as object, will be ruled by subject, and thus have oppression inculcated upon them like Paulo Freire sang in Pedagogy of the Oppressed.
, Torrance Stephens bka All-Mi-T said…
Its all a consequences of inculcation, thoes defined and that accept being defined as object, will be ruled by subject, and thus have oppression inculcated upon them like Paulo Freire sang in Pedagogy of the Oppressed.
Yeah - whites as the dominant group (oppressors)have the power to impose their definition of reality on to blacks (oppressed).
thru a cursory reflection on your ruminations, i wonder whether you are in truth a racial fatalist, as opposed to a racial realist.
conversely, damali had isolated/identified the problem of our progression w/in a structurally inequal society, and the reality blakfolk face: the white supremacist patriarchy will +not+ deconstruct its power, to allow us in amongst the scaffolding (let alone the foundations).
by now it should be clear that the system of structural prejudice in western societies has seemingly achieved self-awareness, on some a.i. sh:t. @ this stage, it seeks only to enhance/protect its perpetuation of pale pigmented privilege.
damali’s statement was simply that we too should realistically bear responsibility in tryna achieve common-ground/comfort in daily relations (as opposed to entrench ourselves in observational micro-complaint, w/ little contribution toward global reversal of racism).
true racial realism would certainly view and support our progress w/in the reality of the imbalanced playing field we’re in today.
that, i believe, was damali’s nuanced point.
and that, i believe, was the point you missed.
once again, you have misunderstood me.
I also find it suprising that Damali seemed so shocked by my arguments
If you re-read my original comment to this post, you will see that i clearly have a problem with your METHODS, not your arguments/opinions. I do not appreciate being ‘put on blast’. It came across as rude and self-serving since you could have just replied to our on-going discussion in your other post. And yes, that’s my opinion.
terrence,
how can you totally agree w/ the racial realist’s response to damali, when in your last line of the same post:
For me, you treat me with respect and I’ll do the same,
you essentially re-phrase damali’s suggestion?
Damali said…
once again, you have misunderstood me…
If you re-read my original comment to this post, you will see that i clearly have a problem with your METHODS, not your arguments/opinions. I do not appreciate being ‘put on blast’. It came across as rude and self-serving since you could have just replied to our on-going discussion in your other post. And yes, that’s my opinion.
I am sorry that you feel this way but do not believe that there was anything wrong with my “methods”. I considered that the previous discussion (on white oriented black people) had generated a new debate, that of who was to blame for poor interracial interactions, which I felt merited a dialogue of its own. Since I disagreed strongly with your perspective, I considered that it would be the natural starting point for a new discussion. So I don’t believe that it was “rude” to introduce the new topic by referring to/ quoting from your previous comments… on the contrary, I think it would have discounted your contribution had I not acknowledged your remarks.
Fliteskinneded,
Your comment is interesting.
My point in saying, “For me, you treat me with respect and I’ll do the same”, is ideal. Essentially, it is what I strive to do while possessing the knowledge that it (respect) might not be reciprocated. That was my point.
I have given out lots of positive energy and behaviors, but was ultimately treated rudely, harassed, belittled, or detained just because of the color of my skin.
I don’t possess a “victim mentality”, but there are some people, who happen to be white, that are intent (consciously or unconsciously) on treating you differently just because of the color of your skin.
Point is, just because one gives off positive energy doesn’t mean others will reciprocate.
If the TV show Black.White is ever aired on television in your community, please take the opportunity to view it.
Black.White is about a black family and a white family swapping out “races”. The black family becomes white and the white family becomes black through makeup.
Last week, Rose, a young white female turned black, visited her neighborhood community (read=white) as a black person and was amazed by the stark contrast in treatment. Rose and her mother spoke about the different energy they felt.
She and her mother, who was made up as a black woman, accompanied a real black woman as they shopped and visited a shopping district in this white community.
As Rose, her mother and the friend crossed the street they encountered white people and Rose enthusiastically spoke to them. The white people didn’t even acknowledge her greeting, plus they moved out of way as if they did not want to be bothered.
Rose couldn’t do anything but laugh. She stated that it didn’t feel like the community she knew. She went into a business and asked for a job application and was told by the white female manager there were no applications.
It’s sad because these people apparently had some preconceived notions about blacks considering the reaction Rose, her mother, and friend received. Such preconceived notions have very dire consequences with regards to interracial interactions.
With that said, saying, “you get back what you give out. Meaning that if you are a friendly person, that’s generally how you will be treated in return” is simply not always true.
This is why I agree with Realist - especially the first point.
Fliteskinneded said…
thru a cursory reflection on your ruminations, i wonder whether you are in truth a racial fatalist, as opposed to a racial realist.
I don’t know how much you know about “racial realism” but I believe my views are generally consistent with law professor, Derrick Bell’s position, regarding the permanence of racism. Reginald Wilson notes Bell’s argument as follows:
‘”America is a racist country and always will be,” but rather than finding this a cause for gloom, he insists that, “It reaffirms that it is not [blacks'] fault … It is an affirmation of themselves and not a basis for despair.” Even though he does not, therefore, hold out hope for success in fighting that deep-seated racism, he says, “there is satisfaction in the struggle itself.”’
http://www.wpunj.edu/newpol/issue17/wilson17.htm
conversely, damali had isolated/identified the problem of our progression w/in a structurally inequal society, and the reality blakfolk face: the white supremacist patriarchy will +not+ deconstruct its power, to allow us in amongst the scaffolding (let alone the foundations).
From what I recall, Damali did not make reference to structural racism.
by now it should be clear that the system of structural prejudice in western societies has seemingly achieved self-awareness, on some a.i. sh:t. @ this stage, it seeks only to enhance/protect its perpetuation of pale pigmented privilege.
I am having difficulty understanding the above paragraph.
damali’s statement was simply that we too should realistically bear responsibility in tryna achieve common-ground/comfort in daily relations (as opposed to entrench ourselves in observational micro-complaint, w/ little contribution toward global reversal of racism).
If “realistically bearing responsibility” in daily relations means “pathologizing” blacks who don’t interact well with whites, I would have to disagree…I repeat what I said previously ie one cannot make a “colorblind” analysis about a race related issue, meaning, it is necessary to take race into consideration when assessing the black person’s behavior. I strongly believe that to ignore race as a variable when considering black peoples role in a racist society is naïve and ultimately helps to maintain the white supremacist status quo.
true racial realism would certainly view and support our progress w/in the reality of the imbalanced playing field we’re in today.
I am having difficulty understanding the above phrase…I don’t think you have stated what exactly you consider to be “true racial realism” – correct me if I am wrong… like I said earlier, I believe my interpretation of racial realism is consistent with Derrick Bell’s standpoint. See the following link for further information regarding the two most popular definitions of racial realism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_realism–>
I’m down with Clare on this one. Interracial interactions are ALWAYS loaded, loaded with “historical energy” as I like to say. In addition, some of the commenters discussed whether there is resentment on the part of blacks toward whites for “past trangressions.” Yes, there often is and there ought to be. I think what is problematic is the notion of “past”. White racism is still a heavy, hard reality. Black disadvantage can be quantified, not to mention experienced on the day-to-day. And even when whites don’t have overtly racist attitudes, they exude white privilege and superiority. The average white American can deny or minimize both our racial past and our racial present and/or be completely ignorant about racial histories and race relations; this is part of the privilege they ooze. It’s white privilege that taints interracial interactions, the privilege to be clueless AND reap the benefits of an entrenched white supremacist system and then to deny it’s all happening.
Peace y’all,
Indigo V.
As I’ve gotten older I’ve moved more towardsstand-offish side. It never fails. When you are nice to them and treat them with respect they always slip up. I white co-worker at work with whom I had been on friendly terms due to some common intrest, complained about having to be around all those “blacks” while waiting for the employee bus. She saw the look on my face and then quickly said “No offense.” When I put her in her place she stated I misunderstood. She even pulled out the black best friend defense. I can relate story after story.
I think there is an assumption of inferiority on their part about us. therefore they can say or do anything. I don’t hold the past against them. I do hold their current behavior which is based on racist assumptions of the past against them. If you are inferior then you have no right to be offeneded or to call them on it.
Here is a quote from The Psychopathic Racial Personality by Bobby E. Wright.
“. . .in their relatinship with the Black race, europeans (whites) are psychyopaths and their behavior reflects and underlying biologically transmitted proclivity with roots deep in their evolutionary history. They psychopath is an individual sho is constaly in conflict with other persons or groups. He is unable ot experience guilt, is completely selfish and callous, and has a total disreard fot he rights of others. This permise is supported by overwhelming scientific evidence.”
I don’t agree with “biological” part but when dealing with white people there is a serious lack of empathy going on. When I illustrated to my co-worker her racism by subsituting the word “blacks” with “Jews” I saw a glimmer of understading of the comment she made. But she still defeneded herself. I think they are blind to the discomfort they cause and when they call on it, they cower in fear of the bad black person.
I recently read The President’s Daughter by Barabara Chase-Ribould. It is a historical fiction novel based on the life of Thomas Jeffersons’s slave daughter who her father refuses to free her from slavery, passes for white. Harriett (the daughter) has much to say about negrophobia and the level of vehemenace that whites carry towards blacks. She also repeats over and over the sentence, “I’ve wronged you, therefore I can not forgive you.” In that the white people in that time (our time for that matter) have done so much wrong to the slaves (rape, murder, breaking up of families, mutlitation) etc. that “forgiveness” would cause the white person to really do some self-examination. What they would see would be so terrible it would be too overwhelming (in their minds) to change.
I’ve found that when white people make disgusting and disparting comments about black or any other race, ethnic group, etc. I call them on, not in effort to change them because I can’t change anyone’s heart but just put them on notice not to speak that way around me. This also applies when they try to put me in their little sterotype boxes. I look on them sometimes with angry but more with pity. Since I practice something between Hinduism and Buddhism, I can clearly see the level of humanity they lose when they fail to recognize the humanity of others. Maybe if this country had healed it’s racist past, we wouldn’t be presntly in this illegal, racist war in Iraq. Maybe if white folks recognzed the humanity of “colored” folk then maybe there wouldn’t be so many white boys shooting up schools, decimating the futures of their emplyoyees (Enron), using much needed government funds but build more weapons, beating up bums, are getting drunk girls to flash themselves for a t-shirt. Acts of inhumanity can not contiained to one “inferior” group.
My focus now is get black folks included myself (I’m still uprooting my internalized crap) to see the truth of themselves not a media construct.
Clare said:
“I see this as a “blame the victim” philosophy…and I think it’s also very much about “proving oneself” to whites/ “winning them over” by showing one has a “great personality” etc … like most of western ideology, it encourages the pathologizing of black people and enables whites to delude themselves that they have the moral highground.”
Indigo Violet said:
“It’s white privilege that taints interracial interactions, the privilege to be clueless AND reap the benefits of an entrenched white supremacist system and then to deny it’s all happening.”
Kimberlie said:
“My focus now is get black folks included myself (I’m still uprooting my internalized crap) to see the truth of themselves not a media construct.”
Wow. Now THIS topic deserves mainstream media coverage. The quotes above summarize my position, and I’m not sure I could add anything else to any of it. It’s just disheartening to know that such dehumanization laid the cornerstone of this country/society/culture, and now all that it stands for resounds racism. What’s ironic though is that since this racist structure is so ingrained at the institutional level, the individuals that benefit from it SEEM to feel excused from any individual responsibility of it.
Case in point, see the links below (I’m not sure about the blog rules as far as whether I can re-post text/links or not, so forgive me if I overstep):
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/01/16/politics/main2365138.shtml
and some, urr, umm, commentary:
http://texasfred.net/?p=918
Over the past year or so, I began to ask the question in my conversations with people, “Why is up the person who is being oppresed to convince the oppressor not to oppress them?” I thought of this question in response to my experinces a black woman in the USA and to many primarily white media outlets who would often chastise Muslims and people of middle eastern descent for not speaking out against terrorist acts. The alternative press and more “left” oriented media outlets always had a representive of the Muslim community decrying these acts. However, they were/are never heard in the wider media because it’s currently fashionable to denounce Muslims and immigrants for that matter right now. They have all been “niggarized.”
My point is if someone is convinced you fit a certain mold no amount of explaning will change that particularly if the person feels they have a vested interest in looking at you in a particular way.
Indigo Violet Said:
I’m down with Clare on this one. Interracial interactions are ALWAYS loaded, loaded with “historical energy” as I like to say.
I love the way you put it – I wish more people were honest about this. I guess most black folk deal with it by not thinking about it and most white folk are in denial about it.
In addition, some of the commenters discussed whether there is resentment on the part of blacks toward whites for “past trangressions.” Yes, there often is and there ought to be.
Absolutely – there ought to be. If there had been/ was more healthy resentment, perhaps blacks as a group would have got it together by now.
And even when whites don’t have overtly racist attitudes, they exude white privilege and superiority. The average white American can deny or minimize both our racial past and our racial present and/or be completely ignorant about racial histories and race relations; this is part of the privilege they ooze. It’s white privilege that taints interracial interactions, the privilege to be clueless AND reap the benefits of an entrenched white supremacist system and then to deny it’s all happening.
Great commentary – thanks for your input and welcome to the blog!
Kimberlie Said:
I don’t hold the past against them. I do hold their current behavior which is based on racist assumptions of the past against them. If you are inferior then you have no right to be offeneded or to call them on it.
Hey Kimberlie – this is so true.
Here is a quote from The Psychopathic Racial Personality by Bobby E. Wright.
“. . .in their relatinship with the Black race, europeans (whites) are psychyopaths and their behavior reflects and underlying biologically transmitted proclivity with roots deep in their evolutionary history. They psychopath is an individual sho is constaly in conflict with other persons or groups. He is unable ot experience guilt, is completely selfish and callous, and has a total disreard fot he rights of others. This permise is supported by overwhelming scientific evidence.”
I’ve had this book for 15 years; it’s a brilliant, if chilling explanation of white racism. Every black person should read it.
I don’t agree with “biological” part but when dealing with white people there is a serious lack of empathy going on.
I think for most white folk, we are not “human enough” to empathize with.
…the white people in that time (our time for that matter) have done so much wrong to the slaves (rape, murder, breaking up of families, mutlitation) etc. that “forgiveness” would cause the white person to really do some self-examination. What they would see would be so terrible it would be too overwhelming (in their minds) to change.
I have read somewhere that a common psychological reaction to committing a terrible wrong against someone is to project blame onto the person you have wronged and hate him or her… so this might be just one of a number of explanations for the antipathy of whites towards blacks today.
Blackmail Said:
Wow. Now THIS topic deserves mainstream media coverage… What’s ironic though is that since this racist structure is so ingrained at the institutional level, the individuals that benefit from it SEEM to feel excused from any individual responsibility of it.
Hey Blackmail, absolutely. Unfortunately because it touches raw nerves, this topic is somewhat taboo and isn’t discussed much at all.
Ultimately I don’t think these bad interactions with white folk would affect black folk as adversely if only we had some kind of unity amongst ourselves. Unity, Sticking together, loyalty, self-love have been strategies other oppressed groups have used to resist oppression. Jewish people are a great example. Unfortunately it seems that the global oppression of black people has wreaked such havoc upon our psyches that we have too many black people today actually colluding with the people who are oppressing us and espousing colorblind ideology (a tool which is used to deny contemporary racism) as illustrated by the exasperating comments which prompted me to do this post last year.
I think the world has to be reprogrammed, starting with the children. Think about it, as a kid you are exposed to many things that you eventually formulate an opinion about. You decide that you either like or dislike food, cartoons, even people. Maybe that boy, or girl in your pre-school who bothers you often makes you feel bad inside. But it is an outside influence that helps you attach words to that emotion.
Consider this, as adults we are all still grappling with racism because most of our parents decide to raise us in neighborhoods that would predominantly mirror our own races. Maybe certain neighborhoods, or people are constantly portrayed in the media in a negative light. Yes, sometimes the media is right on, and sometimes they are just plain wrong. The point is that since you haven’t been exposed to these neighborhoods, or people in a positive manner you base your knowledge on what you have seen so far.
So as an young adult experiencing your first encounter with someone of another race, you may tend to be a little more apprehensive than you would be with someone of your own race. Someone who you don’t know personally, but with whom’s actions you may feel more familiar or comfortable with.